Settle It


  • Global Moderator

    The premere episode of "Settle It" with Damiani and Kyle is live right now on twitch.tv/easyallies the show kicks off with the controversal A Link to the Past debacle involving Kyle Bosman. Tune in for the pre-show and hang out with us.



  • No, it starts 9:30pm PST. Whatever just happened was just Damiani doing whatever he wants with the stream.



  • Just like Final Fantasy 15, the stream wasn't delayed, you just thought it was coming out earlier than it was ;)



  • Now it's started. Already have something to say.

    Any story material or artwork material outside of the game doesn't not factor in the critiquing the actual game.


  • Global Moderator

    Loving the back and forward between Kyle and Damiani



  • Kyle's complaint that the LoZ map is "bigger" is false. It was only 120 tiles, and it's dungeons were all smaller. Out, out shenanigans!



  • The banter is great so far.



  • @Whoaness No Witcher cinematic universes allowed ;)



  • No Settlement confirmed.



  • "We're all losing it a little bit."



  • I know fans will be divisive on it, but I feel like Bosman opened my eyes up more than I had when I last played LTTP (which was long ago). There are definitely a lot of issues with the art. The angled walls are a disaster, and a lot of sprites could be better. lol @ the fat faerie being a negative. Definitely something Nintendo didn't think through.

    As for Damiani's argument, it basically comes down to dismissal, excuses, and references to "Dark Souls" where no connection exists. How can you dismiss that really bad Golden Sword hilt. Even I remember thinking how strange that looked. And that time when Damiani was frustrated about "accidentally hitting a switch", he definitely wasn't having fun despite his remark saying otherwise.

    Anyway, I sent Bosman a tweet about seeing what he thinks about a Zelda clone that I have had early memories of, Neutopia on PC Engine. Just look at a few youtube videos, it is actually amazing how much better it looks compared to LTTP, and it came out 2 years before it.



  • Just watching the archived stream now. I'm 1 hour in. It seems like Bosman is just hung up on the perspective. He has gripes with the sprites, but I think this all comes back to looking at the world through the given perspective. It's kind of like an optical illusion. If you look at it one way, it'll look wrong, if you look at it another way, it'll look correct. Bosman is looking at it a certain way which makes it look wrong, which in turn makes the sprites look weird too.

    So an hour in, and the only real issue that is standing out is the way Bosman is looking at the perspective of the world.



  • @trugs26 umm unless every wall is like a pyramid and an inverted pyramid, nah, the angled side walls are just whacked.

    The sprites looking weird is because some character sprites have no eyes, no nose, they have this weird beak thing going on. Nothing to do with perspective. There isn't many examples of consistent art between good sprites and bad sprites. Take a look at games of that generation that does it well, like Secret of Mana.



  • @Whoaness There are many ways of conveying 3D depth in a game. ALttP just chose to use oblique projection. This type of projection can make things look stretched out if you look at it a certain way, or, if you look at it another way, it looks fine - they probably did it this way so they could show the player more information on the walls. I don't meet many people who have an issue with it, and those who do over think it. But this is understandable, it's like trying to "unsee" optical illusions - it can be difficult to do.

    Mixing this with sprites, if you continue to look at the world an odd way, the sprites won't fit in either. All the perspective lines will throw everything off, so the way the projection is done and the look of the sprites can definitely have a relation to one another. This is particularly true when the buildings use the oblique projection, but the sprites do not. This is actually a matter of fact: A lot of sprites simply have different projections on them. This is purely an artistic choice to convey as much information to the player, yet still hold a sense of depth from the top down view. If you over think it, you'll definitely see how weird the world looks.

    Yes, I'm sure there are some sprites that look bad, but watching Kyle's critiques, a lot of them don't make sense to me personally. Things I struggle to see, which leads me to believe that it might be to do with how he is viewing the perspective of the world in relation to the sprites.



  • 1 hour, 15 minutes now. Kyle actually picks up on how the walls and sprites have different perspective. Again, if you look for these things, it'll bug you. But most people accept it. It's a design choice. Walls have the weird oblique projection to show all the walls, whereas the sprites don't. But, the giant boulder has the same projection as the walls around it, but the smaller rocks have the more "normal" projection. I was thinking about this, and why it was the case. The conclusion I came to is that the giant boulders match the oblique projection because it's supposed to look like it's part of the environment. However, eventually, you'll be able to lift and throw it.



  • @trugs26 LTTP isn't using Oblique Projection. That kind of projection doesn't allow you to see four sides of the insides of a box.
    The kind of "perspective" viewed in LTTP is only possible if you're looking straight down inside a box, and that's not happening since there are stairs and corners of lower walls that break that perspective. And perspective doesn't make eyes and nose disappear.

    This isn't like Binding of Isaac where it was designed purely as boxes in its levels. The perspective works in there, and Bosman pointed out that it works in perfectly boxed rooms for his argument.

    A lot of people have no issues with it because they took it for granted when they played it as a kid, but if they look at it with a real critical eye, especially comparing it with games in its generation, they'll see the problems Bosman points out. The only thing they used those angle side and bottom walls are just for doors and wall decorations, and I guess those eye beam things, but they could use another enemy. All that weird angular style when it's used just for doors? That decision definitely isn't justified.



  • @Whoaness said in Settle It:

    @trugs26 LTTP isn't using Oblique Projection. That kind of projection doesn't allow you to see four sides of the insides of a box.
    The kind of "perspective" viewed in LTTP is only possible if you're looking straight down inside a box, and that's not happening since there are stairs and corners of lower walls that break that perspective. And perspective doesn't make eyes and nose disappear.

    This isn't like Binding of Isaac where it was designed purely as boxes in its levels. The perspective works in there, and Bosman pointed out that it works in perfectly boxed rooms for his argument.

    A lot of people have no issues with it because they took it for granted when they played it as a kid, but if they look at it with a real critical eye, especially comparing it with games in its generation, they'll see the problems Bosman points out. The only thing they used those angle side and bottom walls are just for doors and wall decorations, and I guess those eye beam things, but they could use another enemy. All that weird angular style when it's used just for doors? That decision definitely isn't justified.

    Oblique projection just means that the parallel projection lines just hit the projection plane at angles other than 90 degrees, and do not correspond to perspective projection (as done by our eyes). This does mean you can see the 4 walls on the inside of a box.

    Regardless of what we call it, ALttP is doing one type of projection with the environment walls, and another kind with the sprites. That's the core issue.

    The way ALttP does its projections and mixing of perspectives does not make sense. But I disagree with you that we didn't take issue with it because "we were kids". I was a kid when I played it, but I had older brothers who also played it (they were not kids). I honestly have not met many people who have taken issue with this. Since it's "technically" incorrect, it's easy to pick apart if you look for it with a "critical eye". But if you just play the game, I doubt many people will pick up on it. In fact, I'd imagine many people will like it. You get a cool top-down effect of the environment, yet you can still see your enemy sprites from side on. On top of that, you get the added bonuses of being able to see all the walls (e.g decorations, bomb-able cracks, signs, levers, ladders, doors, etc.).

    And again, yes, there may be some bad sprites. The perspective doesn't excuse all of it (eyes, nose, what have you). I'm just saying, there are moments in the stream were it looks like Bosman is taking issue with the sprites in relation to the different perspective it has with the world around it.



  • @trugs26 Okay, man. You should read up what Oblique Projection is. You obviously don't know what it is.
    LTTP is definitely not drawing parallel lines according to the 3D axis. Oblique Projection also doesn't have a vanishing point in its style, whereas LTTP has vanishing point in the centre, actually, it has more than one vanishing points to compensate for all the different wall layouts. It's just some weird depth isometric.

    And there are no signs, ladders, levers on side walls, only top walls have them. Only anything that is a doorway, including bomb cracks, or wall decoration. There are many ways they could have represented doors on the sidewall without having to resort to a whack perspective.



  • Anyway, separate from all of Kyle's observations (It's Kyle: What did you expect?), my problem with A Link to the Past is that it flatly does not have the appeal of modern Zeldas. The dungeons are just a bunch of rooms stitched together. Puzzles are just switches and keys without a whole lot of reaction or complex interaction. IMO Zelda puzzles are at their best when they are elemental. My favorite dungeon from ALttP would have to be the water temple, because those water level puzzles were actually really cool. I'm just not down with many of the other rooms with portals and blocks and so on.

    And of course all of this is excused by the time at which it was released. However, "tech limitations of the time" and "the greatest game of all time" are inherently mutually exclusive views. ...If you ask me.



  • @Whoaness said in Settle It:

    @trugs26 Okay, man. You should read up what Oblique Projection is. You obviously don't know what it is.
    LTTP is definitely not drawing parallel lines according to the 3D axis. Oblique Projection also doesn't have a vanishing point in its style, whereas LTTP has vanishing point in the centre, actually, it has more than one vanishing points to compensate for all the different wall layouts. It's just some weird depth isometric.

    And there are no signs, ladders, levers on side walls, only top walls have them. Only anything that is a doorway, including bomb cracks, or wall decoration. There are many ways they could have represented doors on the sidewall without having to resort to a whack perspective.

    Looked into it. You're right. It looks like a hodgepodge of projections. So I can agree with you there.

    Regardless, It allows you to have ladders/stairs on bottom walls, and cliffs to jump off on side walls. Which this game does have. Maybe there aren't signs, but I was just throwing out examples of what is possible. An example of what IS in the game, are holes that enemies come out from on the south wall (e.g boulders shooting up). Generally, it allows for the player to see everything without occlusions.

    Bottom line is, you can only point all this out when you put on your "critical eye". But this is not really an issue in practice, it's only an issue if you go looking for it.