Settle It



  • @trugs26 That's subjective then. Some people will notice it, some people won't care, but it's up to reviewers and critics to care about every detail.

    The "who cares" mentality that Damiani has is not what you would want in a critic.



  • I think Damiani is a fine reviewer... just maybe not for SNES games he played as a kid.



  • @Haru17 Nah, I think Damiani is purposefully trolling the whole time even though he gets what Bosman is talking about.



  • @Haru17 None of us who played SNES games as a kid are fair or balances in our views. It was the pinnacle of what we had. We fought for it against our friends with a Genesis. Bias runs deep.



  • @Sazime PC Engine master race! Bring it SNES/Genesis!



  • @Whoaness said in Settle It:

    @trugs26 That's subjective then. Some people will notice it, some people won't care, but it's up to reviewers and critics to care about every detail.

    The "who cares" mentality that Damiani has is not what you would want in a critic.

    Yup, it definitely is subjective. And the fact that this game is so critically acclaimed suggests that most people don't get hung up on the projection issues. But it's understandable for those who do. Again, I could imagine that it might be hard to "unsee" once it's pointed out to you. I'll be interested to do a quick study with non-gamer adults to look at the images and let me know what they think. It'll be interesting to get an unbiased view on this.

    Also, regarding the type of projection. I do wonder if it technically falls into oblique projection, even though it does have a vanishing point. Because it's clearly not perspective projection as it does have multiple vanishing points, but it also has some parallel lines which hit the projection plane at an angle (which is part of the oblique projection definition). I wonder if it's a special case of oblique projection. I'll have a look at the math tomorrow.



  • @trugs26
    The "who cares" mentality that Damiani has is not what you would want in a critic.

    I agree.
    It really frustrated me that Damiani just wasn't willing to have any kind of reasonable discussion about the game. Then again, it's probably not the best idea to try to have that kind of discussion about a game one person has in his top 3 of all time. I mean I get it, but it's still really annoying to see somebody who has been reviewing games for a living that long, be that unwilling to have a constructive conversation. Kyle can be a troll but he really tried to find common ground and Damiani wasn't having it.



  • @Whoaness said in Settle It:

    Anyway, I sent Bosman a tweet about seeing what he thinks about a Zelda clone that I have had early memories of, Neutopia on PC Engine. Just look at a few youtube videos, it is actually amazing how much better it looks compared to LTTP, and it came out 2 years before it.

    After watching the stream I agree with much of the stuff Kyle said about the sprites and the perspective in LttP. But still to my eye that PC Engine game looks worse than LttP. Some of the character sprites look good but the environments look terrible. The tile sets just look really plain and boring with no detail while in LttP they manage to make the world feel somewhat alive.



  • @Ivanhoe I think in Neutopia's environment sprites look better. Trees look like trees and rocks look like rocks.
    One of Bosman's complaints is that the rocks in LttP are hexagons, and the younger trees are just small size big trees, not actually what trees look like when they are growing to full size.

    There's a few more details in LttP like an uneven dirt path, those animated, fluttering flowers, and the level layout was not boxy, but remember that Neutopia was released in 1989 before the SNES was even out. It's was copying Zelda 1's level layout.



  • It can be difficult to compare the visuals and sprite work since there aren't a lot of similar games to ALttP in 1992 on the SNES.
    For example Axelay looks incredible but is a very different kind of game, while The Legend of the Mystical Ninja has a very different exaggerated cartoony/anime style.
    Though in 1993 it gets much easier with games like Jurassic Park, Goof Troop, Pocky & Rocky, Zombies Ate My Neighbors and Secret of Mana.

    So yeah, I wouldn't exactly call ALttP a good looking SNES game. But it's servicable.



  • @Whoaness said in Settle It:

    @Ivanhoe I think in Neutopia's environment sprites look better. Trees look like trees and rocks look like rocks.

    The environment sprites kind of look more realistic in Neutopia, but now that I think about it maybe the way the LttP sprites look kind of weird and unrealistic actually lends to the feel of the whole world. I get kind of warm feel from the LttP graphics as dumb as that might sound as description. Neutopia feels cold and barren like many other games of that time.



  • @Ivanhoe I don't really get what that means in an objective context.

    I would understand it if the artstyle of the entire game was consistently as bad as the rock hexagon with an 8 drawn on it, if you really find it charming, but some objects actually look decent, some characters actually have eyes and noses.

    To get a warm feeling from bad sprites means you don't get that feeling from the good sprites, and if you get it from both, well, that's just a conundrum, a conflict of what you actually think of the game.



  • I don't think there really is objective context here. I didn't mean that just certain bad sprites make the graphics better but as the style overall that is kind of unrealistic.



  • @Ivanhoe I guess what you're saying is some of these sprites in the game are purposefully not what Bosman thinks it should look like. For example, the thief dude with no eyes and nose is just like that as its character artstyle, in comparison, Zelda has some really off-kilter characters like Tingle that absolutely don't match anything else in the game.
    I guess I buy that.

    I still don't buy the look of some of the sprites, like the rocks, and I really believe in what Bosman says about the perspective being confusing.



  • The stream was a lot of Damiani gushing over things and Bosman saying it's not that extraordinary because (reason), to which Damiani either says "you're wrong" or "how can you not like that?"
    Points to Bossy for flipping it around and just saying "that's a bad sprite" after it became obvious Damiani wasn't listening to his reasoning behind the complaints that he has about the game.



  • @Whoaness I think that's it. Thing is I'm not completely sure my self about this or if I buy my own analysis. The perspective thing really does confuse when you start to pay attention to it.



  • I feel like people here are being unfair to Damiani. Sure he was very dismissive, but Bosman wasn't very insightful either (basically harped on the same issue for 90% of the thing: Bad sprites, we get it!). They both gave one off comments on why something was cool/bad while the other was dismissive. They weren't really there to negotiate (even though they said they would be), hence why there wasn't really anything "settled". So they were just as bad as each other, but I still think it was an enjoyable stream to watch. It was entertaining, not so much insightful.



  • @trugs26 said in Settle It:

    They weren't really there to negotiate (even though they said they would be), hence why there wasn't really anything "settled". So they were just as bad as each other, but I still think it was an enjoyable stream to watch. It was entertaining, not so much insightful.

    I really think Bosman at least tried. Either way, I definitely agree that it was a very enjoyable stream. I'd love to see Brad and Brandon do FFVII, but it might lead to Brad getting arrested for manslaughter. :D



  • @trugs26

    This.

    I have no horse in this race, I just wanted to see how episode one of Settle It panned out.

    Entertaining enough stream, albeit peppered with deeply annoying moments - "are you having fun? are you having fun? are you having fun?" - but a failure as a show. Nothing was settled, there was little discussion or resolution. I'm not entirely sure what they intended to settle in the first place: whether it's a bad, good, or great game overall? whether Kyle or Damiani ought to change their opinion on the game? a hashing out of the merits and demerits of Zelda 1, 2 and LttP? If I wanted the latter I'd listen to a few episodes of retronauts.

    The search for common ground at the end was forced, even Damiani wasn't certain about what was going on, Kyle had to remind him that he wasn't arguing a case, then proceeded to dive straight into how much he preferred Zelda 1.

    Neither of them made a convincing pitch, I doubt anyone would be at their most coherent after a 5 hour session. There were no stakes or reasons for them to agree. Kyle hates it, Damiani likes it, that's more or less the sum of things. Kyle's "we working together" sign off rang false, there was little to no collaboration or compromise. For this to work it needs structure, some form of resolution, perhaps even some reward or risk. Huh, almost like ... some kind of video game ....

    In the end Damiani was tired and Kyle was irritable. Not so jolly this time guys.



  • @babpel91 said in Settle It:

    I'd love to see Brad and Brandon do FFVII

    Oh god yes.
    This could be a legit "every now and then" show if more attention is given to the structure, maybe one side presents their argument alongside parts in the game that they think emphasise what they mean and then they switch... Or even a point/counterpoint extended version of the Most Divisive Games vid with some gameplay. More polish and it's a really good concept.