The (De)Evolution of Paper Mario



  • Ok the battle system I can live with, and I knew that Super Paper Mario is in no way an RPG, but if this is the case then woooooow. Way to miss the mark Nintendo.

    It is really is a shame because the first two are really exceptional games.



  • @bard91 It's not to say they are terrible. They have moments and elements that are really stunning, which is probably why it bothers me. But it is so different in overarching concept. And it's not just my opinion. The interview has them specifically saying that Mr. Miyamoto said no story and no new characters, so they just had different colored Toads populate the world. So no more Rawk Hawks or Lord Crumps or Goombarios. I'm open to innovation, but you feel the deficiencies. Sorry for being so negative. My fandom is coming out strong tonight.



  • For me it's a bit different. The first Paper Mario (64) didn't do anything for me. Perhaps because I played it on virtual console, but perhaps because it was less complex / inferior to The Thousand Year Door (which I played at launch, during my childhood) in many ways.

    Super Paper Mario, however, truly holds its ground against TTYD. The combat is less complex, but the dimension-shifting, level design, and puzzles build upon a lot of what The Thousand Year Door was doing (remember that first star piece you find in Rogueport, and how you get there?). Most importantly, the story is so clearly alike The Thousand Year Door's, but full of new ideas all its own.

    I don't know how anyone could credibly say that there was a decline from The Thousand Year Door to now. It's a clean break. Sticker Star simply did not exemplify the design philosophy held by the first three Paper Marios.



  • @Haru17 said in The (De)Evolution of Paper Mario:

    I don't know how anyone could credibly say that there was a decline from The Thousand Year Door to now.

    So I guess the sum of all the game critics and the users are all wrong since if you look at the scores it clearly shows a decline since The Thousand Year Door. Sure, Color Splash is a better game than Sticker Star, but it's still not as good as the games before it were according to.... everyone. I'm not going to argue against Super Paper Mario, because well it seems like a game of preference that tried new things without limiting itself in a stupid way. It was an honest attempt after a very hard to beat title, and it did some cool things of it's own.

    Color Splash is kind of an honest attempt too, just not at a Paper Mario game. They might as well have rebranded the series, because the direction they've forced it to go is no longer the same game as before kind of like the recent Federation Force controversy. I still think you should give it a chance, accept new things, enjoy it for what it is sure, but that thing they put out that they're calling Paper Mario isn't Paper Mario.

    Here's where I say "And Paper Mario isn't, wasn't, and will never be Super Mario RPG." So here we are again, at the crossroads of having to gobble up forced change to a series for "reasons" that don't make a whole lot of actual sense. It sucks. Unfortunately, this is Nintendo you're dealing with, so if you don't buy this title, they'll simply take that as nobody is interested in the entire series anymore, rather than realizing it's a mistake with these last two titles, a mistake with the fundamental design structure they've landed on at this time. So hey, go get that Mario&Luigi series, because Nintendo thinks it's the exact same thing as what Paper Mario used to be.

    Here's the Iwata Asks Billy was talking about: http://iwataasks.nintendo.com/interviews/#/3ds/papermario/0/0

    I'll peace out on a handy little image about precisely this topic:
    alt text



  • Thanks for the thoughtful and well composed replies. Yes, I can totally understand having a difficult time regressing to the first game after TTYD, but that was the first one I played (other than OG Super Mario RPG), so I had a blast with it. And I know I'm being somewhat immature. I'm sure Color Splash is entertaining in its own right. I just lament how the series has shifted to something I have far less interest in when they were such beloved games for me. I completed Sticker Star, and while it's bursting with charm, I can never see myself replaying it. And knowing that Color Splash is more or less the same, I'm not sure that I will purchase it. However, like you said, I worry that Nintendo takes that as a hint that they should abandon the series at large, rather than return to a more traditional structure. Plus they feel that Mario & Luigi meets the RPG needs. Regardless, I feel better now. I was just conflicted and then I read about how "Mario games don't need a story." Which they don't, but man, they can do them so well!

    And for Super Paper Mario, I think that game has cool and innovative ideas, even if it's not all too appealing to me. The big reason I'm still more on board with it is because it had an awesome story with great characters and a connected world with secrets to uncover... Things that defined the series for me. I prefer the fist two, but it's objectively a good game.

    I guess that's the point. Objectively, they are all good games. Subjectively, I'm an old man stuck in his ways and resistant to certain changes.



  • @Mbun said in The (De)Evolution of Paper Mario:

    @Haru17 said in The (De)Evolution of Paper Mario:

    I don't know how anyone could credibly say that there was a decline from The Thousand Year Door to now.

    So I guess the sum of all the game critics and the users are all wrong since if you look at the scores it clearly shows a decline since The Thousand Year Door. Sure, Color Splash is a better game than Sticker Star, but it's still not as good as the games before it were according to.... everyone. I'm not going to argue against Super Paper Mario, because well it seems like a game of preference that tried new things without limiting itself in a stupid way. It was an honest attempt after a very hard to beat title, and it did some cool things of it's own.

    Color Splash is kind of an honest attempt too, just not at a Paper Mario game.

    Mbun, my man, we literally don't disagree on any of this: reread the last sentence of my post. I simply don't like calling it a "decline" from TTYD to now, because that casts Super Paper Mario in a light similar to the one Resident Evil 5 gets now. Moreover, we're both saying that Sticker Star and Color Splash are not Paper Mario games. To my mind, once you make that claim it doesn't make sense to say "Paper Mario games have declined" when in actuality they have just ceased.



  • Paper Mario: The Thousand Year Door is my favorite turn-based RPG of all time. While the original Paper Mario was excellent, TTYD door absolutely blows it out of the water because of how unique the game is. All new enemies, all new locations, all new stories. Sure you start off with a regular "beat the dragon in castle in the grass field," but its not long before you are suplexing enemies in a wrestling tournament, getting stuck in an episode of the Twilight Zone, and solving a bleeding Agatha Christie murder mystery novel. In a Mario game. That's insane!

    Even Super Paper Mario I adored for this reason. It lost a lot making the transition, but that uniqueness of settings, that charm of the writing, the occasionally surprisingly compelling story....it was all still there.

    But now....now look at the franchise. It's been devolved. Nintendo has this obsession with "protecting" their properties to a fault. They are afraid to ever mix it up because they want "every new gamer to have the same experience old gamers did." They want it so that a father and son can both talk about how great that fire castle was in the Mario games they each played as a kid. Which is respectable in theory, but in practice it means there is no reason to ever play a second Mario game, as its just more of the same.

    The characters I've lost....the settings I've lost.....you feel it too, don't you? It's like they're all still there.



  • @Haru17 said in The (De)Evolution of Paper Mario:

    To my mind, once you make that claim it doesn't make sense to say "Paper Mario games have declined" when in actuality they have just ceased.

    Alright, fair enough.


  • Banned

    @Haru17 said in The (De)Evolution of Paper Mario:

    To my mind, once you make that claim it doesn't make sense to say "Paper Mario games have declined" when in actuality they have just ceased.

    You're right. Paper Mario is dead.

    /thread



  • @Art I mean, kinda. :/

    Oh, to have Paper Mario and Metroid Prime games again. And maybe a dash of Mario fùtbol...



  • @Haru17 I'm one of them people who loves 2D Metroid but thought Prime was a much bigger and better thing. Never did play Strikers, but I adore the other sports titles. I imagine I should check that out? I kinda forgot they existed.



  • It's really sad what Nintendo did here, I will not bother with Color Splash, I played the 1st 3 which are great (1&2) and good (3) but only watched a LP of Sticker Star, and boy am I glad I did as I now know that this game would piss me off immensely, and it still kinda did just watching it (and the LPer cutted out most of the grinding for those darn stickers).



  • @Musou-Tensei I wish stuff like Blockbuster and other game rental stores were still common, so I could just say give it a chance. Color Splash is much better than Sticker Star, just don't go into it expecting good combat or partners or the classic Paper Mario experience. There's still enjoyable stuff to be had there, but maybe watch someone play the first third or half of it before committing to a purchase to make sure it's your jam. Ben also played a tiny bit of the beginning recently if you want to get a little impression.