The Odd Child


  • Banned

    "F**k you!" - Donte
    "I got a bigger dick" - Vorgil



  • @Art That's actually a fair representation of Fox News.



  • Is Wind Waker still considered the ugly stepchild of the Zelda franchise? Or has everyone grown up a bit and realised it is actually one of the best games in the whole franchise.



  • @thenerdtheword Nah, I think most people recognize it as an amazing game (my personal favorite!). I also don't think it would count as an "Odd Child," since outside of the artstyle it still very much falls in line with other zelda games. If anything, I'd say Zelda II is the odd child of that series.

    @Haru17 I wanted to play that game because it was a console follow up to Crystal Chronicles! It was just delayed so many times that I eventually lost interest in it.


  • Banned

    @thenerdtheword People agree that Wind Waker has aged like a fine wine.

    Unlike Twilight Princess with its muddy textures and ugly character designs which aged like milk.

    Even Nintendo realized this. Why else do you think they've been using cel-shading on the last couple Zelda games? Their current hardware isn't capable of shitting out something "realistic" so they're sticking to what works.



  • Don't even start with bringing up The Wind Waker in this thread. That game is so in vogue with the open world bubble going on currently that it's sickening. And don't even get me started on the quasi-hipster notion that everything with a cartoonish of "stylized" art style is superior to photorealism.

    I'm really starting to hate The Wind Waker, and it's not because of the game.


  • Banned

    I didn't say it was superior. I'm just saying its aged better.

    I'm sure realistic games such as The Witcher 3, Horizon Zero Dawn and Final Fantasy XV will all still look great in ten years time.



  • Mechanics don't age. Older open worlds, however, compare very poorly to their modern contemporaries.



  • @Haru17 I haven't heard much recent discussion about it, but I'm also pretty out of the loop. I just love the vibes of that game, more so than any other Zelda. Plus the character animations (especially during combat) are sublime.



  • Metal Gear Rising: Revengeance. That game could have easily been a hot pile of garbage. I honestly expected it to be. It wasn't until years later that I was encouraged to play it. Yes, the mechanics were solid and the little slashing gimmick was pretty cool, but I'm very much a narrative-driven player. I care about deep and well-rounded characters, fully fleshed-out worlds, and extensive thought-provoking lore. I believed that this game could not possibly compare to the likes of MGS1 or MGS3.

    In short, it didn't. But it's approach to its story and set pieces was brilliant. It tackled everything with this misguided sense of seriousness and confidence while being drenched under mountains of camp like a bad '80s action flick. It's one of those "it's so ridiculous, it's amazing" kind of experiences.

    Honestly, I believe PlatinumGames saved this title. If it was under the helm of anyone else, it would've been a failure. Luckily, Konami picked the right team for the job and breathed this little imperfect gem to life.

    But that still doesn't mean I'm going anywhere near Metal Gear Survive. That ship has long past sailed.


  • Banned

    @naltmank Technically FFT has had a ton of love. Several games set in Ivalice, including a main line game. (FF12)

    @Art Donte actually had a character arc, as opposed to just being CUH-RAZY from start to finish like every other DMC, unless we are talking about DMC2 in which case he was a silent, brooding edgelord.



  • @Haru17 said in The Odd Child:

    Mechanics don't age. Older open worlds, however, compare very poorly to their modern contemporaries.

    It would be very easy to say, look at the open worlds for games like Watchdogs and Mafia 3 and then compare them to Wind Waker with WW coming out on top by a large margin. I much prefer a bright colourful game world with character rather than a dreary husk that is there to hit a checkbox.

    Anyway, after slightly derailing the thread to get things back on topic....

    Metal Gear Acid and Metal Gear Acid 2 are both brilliant spin-offs from the main series that do a good job of translating the MGS gameplay into a weird tactical RPG/Card Game hybrid.

    2 even had the Solid Eye to play the game in 3D by holding the PSP close to your face and awkwardly playing it like a chump. TAKE THAT PSVR!
    alt text

    I poured so many hours into both games!



  • @thenerdtheword said in The Odd Child:

    @Haru17 said in The Odd Child:

    Mechanics don't age. Older open worlds, however, compare very poorly to their modern contemporaries.

    It would be very easy to say, look at the open worlds for games like Watchdogs and Mafia 3 and then compare them to Wind Waker with WW coming out on top by a large margin. I much prefer a bright colourful game world with character rather than a dreary husk that is there to hit a checkbox.

    But at that point you're just spouting value judgements in place of actually comparing the open worlds. The Wind Waker's is aflat ocean with maybe four different random events (sharks, barrels, octoroks, ships). There are 49 small patches of land, most having caves, with a lot of useless treasure and pirate lookouts around.

    I think it would be hard to say that even the worst modern open worlds which you've hand-selected wouldn't beat that in straight level design.



  • @Haru17 said in The Odd Child:

    @thenerdtheword said in The Odd Child:

    @Haru17 said in The Odd Child:

    Mechanics don't age. Older open worlds, however, compare very poorly to their modern contemporaries.

    It would be very easy to say, look at the open worlds for games like Watchdogs and Mafia 3 and then compare them to Wind Waker with WW coming out on top by a large margin. I much prefer a bright colourful game world with character rather than a dreary husk that is there to hit a checkbox.

    But at that point you're just spouting value judgements in place of actually comparing the open worlds. The Wind Waker's is aflat ocean with maybe four different random events (sharks, barrels, octoroks, ships). There are 49 small patches of land, most having caves, with a lot of useless treasure and pirate lookouts around.

    I think it would be hard to say that even the worst modern open worlds which you've hand-selected wouldn't beat that in straight level design.

    To compare things directly Wind Waker has a greater sense of discovery and tighter navigation of its open world. Events might be less numerous and repetitive but overall it is superior because it is consistent with the overall vision of the game. (See Red Dead Redemption for another brilliant example of consistent open world design with a strong sense of discovery and limited number of randomised events) In modern open world design far to many devs use it to add unneeded content to a game.

    I could happily sail around Wind Waker's world map looking for everything the game has to offer but in a game like LA Noire the open world aspect completely detracts from the core of the game. In fact they are often at odds with each other once you get off the patrol beat and behind the detective's desk.

    The one exception I would give to this is Shadow of Mordor because even though the open world is sparsely populated and dreary away from the more purpose built areas. The overall space is used well for playing out certain events in the Nemesis system which is the core of the game.

    A good test for open world design is to see if you can navigate it without using navigation arrows or minimaps. Just the environment and cross checking things on whatever larger scale map screen is given to you the pause menu. If you can play through a chunk of or even the whole game without getting frustrated then that is one well put together space.

    It works in Wind Waker because you can use the direction of the wind and objects on the horizon to orientate yourself. In something like inFamous Second Son a lot of the areas look the same so it is easy to get turn around unless you find landmarks. So you often end up getting as high up as possible to orientate yourself before deciding where to go next. Which is quick and easy to do in inFamous but not so in other open worlds set in densely packed cities.

    The Arkham games also tend to have pretty good open world design because the different areas of the maps are divided up into distinct sections with their own flavour and architecture for key buildings and landmarks. But even they get a bit iffy in places.

    Sidenote: Turning off "Show Location on Map" in Firewatch and just using the Compass and Map as you would in real life also shows the strength of good open world design.



  • @thenerdtheword said in The Odd Child:

    @Haru17 said in The Odd Child:

    @thenerdtheword said in The Odd Child:

    @Haru17 said in The Odd Child:

    Mechanics don't age. Older open worlds, however, compare very poorly to their modern contemporaries.

    It would be very easy to say, look at the open worlds for games like Watchdogs and Mafia 3 and then compare them to Wind Waker with WW coming out on top by a large margin. I much prefer a bright colourful game world with character rather than a dreary husk that is there to hit a checkbox.

    But at that point you're just spouting value judgements in place of actually comparing the open worlds. The Wind Waker's is aflat ocean with maybe four different random events (sharks, barrels, octoroks, ships). There are 49 small patches of land, most having caves, with a lot of useless treasure and pirate lookouts around.

    I think it would be hard to say that even the worst modern open worlds which you've hand-selected wouldn't beat that in straight level design.

    Events might be less numerous and repetitive but overall it In modern open world design far to many devs use it to add unneeded content to a game.

    ...But The Wind Waker is exacly like that. Even disregarding the Triforce quest — which never really bugged me — the treasure charts, spoils bag items, and copied features in the open world are all unnessecary, filler content. Those aren't Zelda at all, they're The Wind Waker reaching toward typical open world features.

    And the world is featureless. More than any other game, the ocean is lierally featureless and identical, making it super easy to be disoriented (hence the focus on the map).



  • I just thought of one that slightly bends the rules of the topic but - Sega Saturn. Possibly I'm drunk on nostalgia, but I would easily give it the title of my favorite console. Guardian Heroes, Bug, Clockwork Knight, Nights: Into Dreams, Panzer Dragoon Saga, Astral (okay, maybe not Astral)... I just have so many great memories tied to that system and it's hardly given any respect. Even the mostly obscure Dreamcast is recognized much more than the Saturn and it's a shame. I would sacrifice at least seven baby goats for some sort of Saturn collection to be released.



  • @Haru17 said in The Odd Child:

    @thenerdtheword said in The Odd Child:

    @Haru17 said in The Odd Child:

    @thenerdtheword said in The Odd Child:

    @Haru17 said in The Odd Child:

    Mechanics don't age. Older open worlds, however, compare very poorly to their modern contemporaries.

    It would be very easy to say, look at the open worlds for games like Watchdogs and Mafia 3 and then compare them to Wind Waker with WW coming out on top by a large margin. I much prefer a bright colourful game world with character rather than a dreary husk that is there to hit a checkbox.

    But at that point you're just spouting value judgements in place of actually comparing the open worlds. The Wind Waker's is aflat ocean with maybe four different random events (sharks, barrels, octoroks, ships). There are 49 small patches of land, most having caves, with a lot of useless treasure and pirate lookouts around.

    I think it would be hard to say that even the worst modern open worlds which you've hand-selected wouldn't beat that in straight level design.

    Events might be less numerous and repetitive but overall it In modern open world design far to many devs use it to add unneeded content to a game.

    ...But The Wind Waker is exacly like that. Even disregarding the Triforce quest — which never really bugged me — the treasure charts, spoils bag items, and copied features in the open world are all unnessecary, filler content. Those aren't Zelda at all, they're The Wind Waker reaching toward typical open world features.

    And the world is featureless. More than any other game, the ocean is lierally featureless and identical, making it super easy to be disoriented (hence the focus on the map).

    So you'd eliminate the one part of the game that uses the open world to its advantage?



  • @thenerdtheword ...By which you mean the ocean? Um, yeah. Playing The Wind Waker there're literally minutes of dead space at a time, sailing from location to location like the actual worst part of an open world game. Breath of the Wild seems to be using a lot of The Wind Waker's ideas (glowing beacons at night, flocks of seagulls, the telescope, umm, wind), but with an actual open world to back them up, with actual land to break up the monitory of the No Man's Sky-like travel. So I have hope for it.

    In any case, I should probs stop responding to this conversation. Not because of your posts of course, but because I've lost track of things.



  • Pokémon Colosseum comes to mind in terms of odd entries.



  • @Haru17 said in The Odd Child:

    @thenerdtheword ...By which you mean the ocean? Um, yeah. Playing The Wind Waker there're literally minutes of dead space at a time, sailing from location to location like the actual worst part of an open world game. Breath of the Wild seems to be using a lot of The Wind Waker's ideas (glowing beacons at night, flocks of seagulls, the telescope, umm, wind), but with an actual open world to back them up, with actual land to break up the monitory of the No Man's Sky-like travel. So I have hope for it.

    In any case, I should probs stop responding to this conversation. Not because of your posts of course, but because I've lost track of things.

    No worries! :D