Franchises gone awry?

  • I will say two that pops in my mind right now:
    Top Spin

  • @SabotageTheTruth I'm playing through Xenogears right now and I'm loving it, but whatever you heard about Xenoblade is misguided. Especially the first Xenoblade, one of the greatest tales ever told! Xenoblade X leans more into the side quests and the world than the main story and characters, but still loooove that game, no game does mechs better!

    Youtube Video

  • @TOPHATANT123 I do have a New 3DS XL now... so it looks like I may need to take the plunge.

  • @Vexchaneu I feel like that's a bit unfair. It's much easier to make a gigantic world when all you need to add another town is a handful of textures and some text. As world detail goes up, the man-hours cost of creating those worlds goes up exponentially. It's no coincidence that as the series has gone along, the worlds have gotten both smaller and more detailed. I don't think it has anything to do with their ambition, just the simple facts of what it takes to make a video game.

    Creating all of Tamriel in the level of detail that is present in Skyrim would be...Well, it took them 4 years to make Skyrim, and there's 9 provinces, so very roughly we'd be looking at a 36 year development time?

  • @Killericon I don't think i'm being unfair at all at the time Daggerfall was cutting edge it was filled with new levels of freedom, Bethesda has savagely curtailed freedom in their most recent games.
    I don't mind the game map getting smaller I do mind freedom being taken away.

  • @Vexchaneu I don't mean to take anything away from Daggerfell, but its game map is the size of Oklahoma. That's insane, but most of that map is this: Youtube Video

    I just don't think it's reasonable to expect Bethesda to keep that scope while keeping up with the level of graphical fidelity and content density of modern games.

  • @Killericon again it's not the size of the map that concerns me it's what you can do in the game that concerns me.
    edit: for the record let me say I don't think Skyrim is a bad game I just think it's a bad Elder Scrolls game

    here is a post I made 5 years ago on Bethesda forums that I feel sums up my thoughts on Skyrim.

    10(or more) things I dislike about Skyrim

    1. Repetitive dialog and terrible writing (a lot of the books are ok)

    2. Lack of magic options, here is a list of magic from other TES games that are no longer in.

    Open Lock
    Water Walking
    Slow Fall
    Bound Armour's
    a lot of Bound Weapons
    Summon : Ghost,Scamp,Clannfear,Spider Daedra,Wraith,Lich,Xivila,Skeleton,Zombie,Bonelord,Golden Saint,Bonewalker,Hunger,Winged Twilight.
    Weakness to Fire,Frost,Shock,Poison,Magicka
    Fortify : health,magicka, attribute,fatigue,skill
    Elemental Poison
    Swift Swim
    Detect Enchantments
    Detect Key
    Divine and Almsivi Interventions

    1. Lack of weapon options spear,melee staff,crossbow,throwing weapons,short swords and clubs all of which have been in TES games before.

    2. Hand holding meaning the GPS compass, fast travel and floating quest arrows and the fact that even if you turn these things off or choose not to fast travel it does not change the fact that the game was designed for you to use them.

    3. Worlds interaction with you seems non existent except for the occasional guard who will randomly mention something you have done or something you are good at, unfortunately these are soulless reactions a couple of examples are a guard will ask you to enchant his sword you cant(I would love to enchant stuff for them) or if you are a werewolf and kajht they will still mention the fur in your ears.

    4. Easy EASY game the only time I can die is if i crank the difficulty all the way up and I start getting careless.

    5. Lack of attributes makes characters feel less unique and the perks are often useless.

    6. No real innovation in the series, all they seem to do was make it look better, other then that they brought back randomized quests(daggerfall)

    7. Not being able to walk through a town without starting conversations that lead to quests
      (I just want to walk to the store) and if you don't sit there and listen to the conversion then and there it is gone forever.

    8. The journal or should I say the lack thereof

    Special mentions : Short guild quests and gender specific clothes

  • @Vexchaneu Fair enough, but I do think some of your complaints are linked to the unavoidable increase in world complexity.

    1. Repetitive dialogue is primarily an issue because you have to hire voice actors. When it's just text, like Daggerfell or Morrowind, it's much easier to have more variation in dialogue.

    2. A lot of those spells I definitely miss(a lot of those were there as recently as Oblivion, even), but Levitation in particular is world breaking. Mark/Recall is kind of useless in a world with Fast Travel(which I'm not a fan of, but if it's there...).

    3. I'd say this is half and half. They could put in the extra effort to do all of the different styles of weapons, but it takes much more work now to implement a variety of weapons than it did when they amde Daggerfell.

    4. Agreed. This is just dumbing down, no question. And it does affect game/world/quest design fundamentally.

    5. Agreed(and this is a particular pet peeve of mine), but again, it's a lot less work to add several lines of text than it is to record all those line of voice dialogue.

    6. Agreed. More of the dumbing down that the series has undergone.

    7. Agreed again.

    8. I guess this is fair, but I don't really care too much.

    9. I don't know what in particular you're referring to?

    10. Agreed, this is the worst.

    Special Mentions: Skyrim was the worst for this, but I did enjoy quite a lot of the Guild stuff in Oblivion and Morrowind. Tell me you didn't enjoy the Dark Brotherhood stuff in Oblivion. And yeah, gender specific clothing would be much appreciated.

  • @Killericon

    1. In a lot if not all the towns NPC's will run up to you and just start rambling on about something but even more annoying is when you walk by them and they say the same dialog over and over again, and if the dialog was important there is no way to hear it again as far as I remember.(ironically important dialog does not get repeated)

    Special Mentions : Oblivion's Dark Brotherhood quest line was the best thing about Oblivion.

  • @Vexchaneu Oh yeah. I don't recall any time where you'd miss out on a quest if you didn't sit there and listen to that, but it sure does get annoying. Especially when you're half way through THAT quest, like when you're clearing out Benirus Manor and every conversation in the town is "I heard screaming coming from Benirus Manor the other night!"

  • Borderlands, if Gearbox is not careful.

    Borderlands 1 was great.

    To me, a world filled with freaks where the main characters are level-headed is a big Thumbs-up! (Gearbox: "Oh! People like crazies!") Proceeds to add the craziest goddamn characters in the Sequels. Fine, but at least we still have some characters that are normal.

    Then Battleborn? (shudders) Why is everybody on acid? Just stop.

    To me, if Borderlands 3 is just more of Gearbox's style, its doomed.

  • One franchise I'd love to see make a return is Max Payne. The series really took a turn with the third installment, but I still thought it was an excellent game overall.
    alt text
    It probably would be kind of hard to write a sequel taking place after the events of 3 though haha, poor Max needs a break.

  • Call of duty

    Specifically the single player, I don't enjoy the way they have gone with the MP but I can see why people still enjoy it but man I loved COD4 (the best in my opinion) and MW2 but since then story mode has gotten progressively worse year on year (black ops titles being the better of the bunch) .

    I know a fair amount of people liked black ops 3 but in my opinion the story mode was complete trash not even Katee Sackhoff could redeem it for me, it just lacked any nuance.

    I have played a lot zombies mode in the previous titles but don't like how its tied to the rest of the game (DLC), would love to see zombies sold as a separate game but i doubt that will happen.

    I hope infinite war can redeem it but I find it hard to believe it will be much better.

    Does anyone think it can be redeemed and if so how?

  • Dungeon siege 3 broke my heart, so badly. I loved the first games and then they produced that travesty!

    Also resident evil, I know there's hope with the resi 7 demo, but 5 and 6 were just trying to be something resi isn't, IE action games. I want them to go back to the roots, atmospheric horror, fixed cameras, jump scares, puzzles, depth of story. Please capcom!

  • @Vexchaneu I love this discussion and I couldn't agree more! I have been a fan of the Elder Scrolls series since Arena (I even own a copy of the demo, which was where I first experienced it as a kid). I always was fascinated with the world they created. Daggerfall made religion in depth and although everything was pretty cookie cutter with randomly generated quests, they captured this feeling of an enormous world and huge thriving cities. Having to ask for directions was always an engaging experience for me.

    Here is the thing, the Elder Scrolls use to limit you based on the skills, race and gender your character was. In Morrowind, this was very much the case and it encouraged you to play a variety of different styles, raced and gender. Skyrim does none of this. A big example that took me out of the game was playing a Dark Elf character. In the Stormcloak main city, Dark Elves were put into slums and racism and prejudice ran rampant. Regardless, my character did all the quests for the stormcloaks and helped drive the empire out. With that, they said, "Thanks!" Exclusion based on character decisions doesn't have to be a bad thing and can really open people up to try new and different things. Race and gender mean only one thing in the game. Appearance. Sure there are racial advantages, but those really do boil down to minor details as you level.

    There needs to be more variety and a feeling of freedom like stated, but that freedom can have ramifications based on your decisions of who your character is. I hate the ability to be a jack of all traits and 100% a game with one character as it brings me out of the world.

    Oblivion started to move into the inclusion of everyone, but at least in their defense, they had some very riveting stories in the guild quests. Skyrim simply tried to one up Oblivion in their quest lines, without making them seem intimate. We always look at Oblivion's Dark Brotherhood quest as example of something special, and there is a reason for that. The characters seemed unique, the quest lines, inventive on how you accomplished them and the overarching tale seemed to grow and shape before our eyes.

    They need to not worry about making things seem more epic and focus more on creating convincing and unique worlds that offer genuine freedom of choice.

  • @BogusMeatFactory The real unfortunate thing is I don't think it will ever go back to being as open and free as it once was, for a couple of reasons 1. I think a lot of the original people are no longer working for Bethesda if not a lot then a few key people who worked on the RPG mechanics (just speculation I have nothing to back this up) and 2. They started to stream line the series to appeal to a larger audience and now that they have had a huge taste of success I am sure they are in the mind set that they can do no wrong. 3. Mods, you will see it in almost any discussion about TES games everyone is like "tch just wait a couple months there will be a mod for it" this kind of thought process I feel allows Bethesda to get away with the proverbial murder of the Elder Scrolls games.

  • Jak and Daxter. The first 3 main games were amazing. Jak X was a fun ride, but not a Jak game per se. And let's just not talk about the lost frontier, okay?

    Silent hill. The first 4 games were amazing horror games and then Konami went and did the one thing Konami does best, they fugg it up. The following Silent hill games were soo bad and then when Kojima makes it amazing Konami, once again, fuck it up royally.

    Halo. Halo should've stopped when Bungie stopped making Halo. They had the magic that made Halo, Halo. As much as I wish 343 had it in them, they don't. Lets not forget that it's a big fucking plate to step up to and Halo 4 was not a bad game (I haven't touched Halo 5 yet), but it wasn't Halo. It's wasn't a Bungie made Halo. Once a prestigeos name in gaming, the last two main instalments have tainted the legacy of a giant. Master chief should've been done after 3, we should've been left in the dark after 3's ending.

  • @ThatMartime World of Warcraft.

  • @Fridge-man Did you get a chance to try the Daxter spin-off for PSP? I think it was a really good Jak And Daxter game, and probably one of the best PSP games ever made!

  • Breath of Fire.

    I think the tragedy of Breath of Fire for me is that the game that "killed" the series, Dragon Quarter, is actually a fantastic game. I think Dragon Quarter has even been vindicated a bit over time--people hated it when it came out, but these days I mostly see people gushing about it. Breath of Fire 6 apparently exists as a browser game, so it's more of an undead series than a dead series, but man. Breath of Fire was amazing while it lasted.