Constructive Feedback: Equality, Diversity and Sexualization in Games


  • Banned

    You're all just a bunch of sexist white heterosexual males.



  • @thenerdtheword said in Constructive Feedback: Equality, Diversity and Sexualization in Games:

    In the interest of trying keep things civil I'll ignore this :grimacing:

    You say as you reply with a passive aggressive comment? Maybe don't make a comment like that at all next time, since you don't drive the discussion forward and you're not even being civil about it in the first place. You're only trying to win points, not treating it as a civil discussion.

    With BioWare it is interesting how their approach to inclusivity started off as a slow trickle but now they have become sort of known for it they are almost reaching the point were a lot of tastes are covered in there releases. It has become expected to a point but their writing teams are geared around approaching story and character from as many points of view as they can get. Without there being an explicit mandate of "We need X number of non-hetero characters/romances in this game." As for the Iron Bull one man's joke is another's bear fantasy.

    The problem is how they handle it. It comes off as very heavy handed and forced at times. They also actually don't really explore relationships but just have you racking up points by saying nice things to the characters until you can have sex with them and then the progression ends. With certain characters it's not even handled seriously/romantically like in a real relationship, sometimes they even make it into a joke.
    It's as if the writers aren't competent or they're uncomfortable with writing that kind of material, because it feels awkward.

    The way they handled relationships in Baldurs Gate 2 was infinitely better and more mature. It added depth to the characters with no clear endgoal (like sex, since when that happened the relationship continued) and not simply treating it like some sex minigame.

    I also don't feel like making almost the entire cast become romancable is a good idea. Not only is it quantity over quality but it also gets pretty dumb when it feels like you're walking across a minefield to AVOID "romances" without upsetting any of the characters. Like it makes it annoying to simply have a conversation with the character when the "romance" is so ham-fisted and is pretty much integrated into how much the character likes you as a friend and as a romance. The worst offender is of course Anders from DA2 but this still happened in DA:I.

    I've seen a lot of non-gamers enjoy BioWare games because their sexuality is represented and for the most part the games do a good job of only giving you that content if you explicitly go after it. You'll get a nod to point you in that direction but it is up to the player to decide if they want to see it play out in that way.

    Good for them but I don't see how that makes Dragon Age a better game. I mean if Dragon Age is first and foremost now known for the all-encompassing romances then that alone tells me that the devs are really going in the wrong direction.
    They're not known as great games with tons of good things about them, like representing sexuality well (which it doesn't). Instead the thing people instantly think about now when they hear "Dragon Age" are the ham-fisted romances that try and include all sexualities which wasn't the case with Dragon Age 1.

    This is basically what I'm talking about when I say "forced" and when the end product suffers for it. In Baldurs Gate 2 the romances were a bonus that could go on for quite some time and were fairly complex, but in Dragon Age they have now even focused pretty heavily on the romances but they still can't surpass BG2's. Not only that but with DA the games are even suffering for it.
    If you want to have mixed sexuality romances then just do something like one romance for straight males, one for straight women and one for gay men. You don't need to try and cover all the bases in one game. If the lesbian women get triggered by this and don't get your game because of it then you never wanted them as your consumers anyway. These people are not interested in a good game.
    Then maybe next game make a bi romance instead of the gay one or make it into a gay one for women.

    The main probem with the Bioware audience (not all of them obviously) is how so many of them don't even care about the quality of the game or even the writing, but more about being all inclusive in terms of sexuality and shit. Fuck if I could choose I'd prefer it that they removed ALL romances from the series from now on (if this is how they plan on making them) and instead focus on writing interesting characters, but also more importantly on making a good game. So far the only good Dragon Age is the first one.

    I've not really played many Obsidian titles outside of KOTOR II and an attempted playthrough of Alpha Protocol. I just find on the whole their writing to be very wooden.

    I have absolutely no idea what to say about this. You find stuff written by people like Chris Avellone to be wooden? Well okay then. Chris and his work is so well respected that he is treated as a stretch goal for Kickstarter games like Planescape Tides of Numenera (the first game Planescape Torment which he was heavily involved in is regarded as one of the most well written games to date) and his talent is sought out everywhere. The way they write games opens up for more role playing and adds depth.

    Even though the the other writers at Obsidian are not really on par with Chris they're still well above the writers over at Bioware. The way they handle the "issues" you're talking about is leaps ahead of Bioware, both in terms of the writing and how they're handled in-game/In-universe.
    You can tell people like Josh Sawyer puts a lot of thought into his games from his replies on twitter and other social media.
    So if anything I advice you to try out more Obsidian games.



  • Haha holy fuck this thread is gold.

    "I support equality for everyone, but only if it isn't shoved in my face! Also if the options aren't up ro my standards, they just shouldn't even bother!"

    So men should get two romance options while women get one, and everybody else just gets zero representation in games?

    Im sorry, but love doesn't work how you think it does. It is not black and white.

    I wish you were trolling. I really do.



  • @El-Shmiablo said in Constructive Feedback: Equality, Diversity and Sexualization in Games:

    Haha holy fuck this thread is gold.

    Thank you for your contributon to this thread and how civil you were about it. You clearly also flaunt your open-mindedness and willingness to actually discuss subjects like a reasonable adult. Heck you can't even directly quote me, you have to speak "broadly" in a passive aggressive manner. Talk about having no balls.

    "I support equality for everyone, but only if it isn't shoved in my face! Also if the options aren't up ro my standards, they just shouldn't even bother!"

    Why do you make up these quotations? You constantly try and twist the narrative to suit your purposes. Using clear logical fallacies.

    • I thought I wasn't clear, but I'll try and dumb it down to a simple list since you seem to be incapable of understanding a word I've said:
    • I support equality.
    • I don't like mistreatment or special treatment (which ties directly into my equality belief).
    • I don't like things to be forced in media. If a topic like say racism is brought up or present then it should be in favor of realism in a story, not to forcefully try and push some agenda. For example if the characters try and hit me over the head of how bad racism is then that's bad, if they instead try and use racism to make the story more realistic while trying to broaden people's understanding of it (like in say Mafia 3) then I'm all for it. Since I mentioned Josh before, here's a good response from him (since you don't seem to understand anything I say, maybe you'll understand him). Here's another response from him in regards to this topic.
    • I clearly said that I think that Bioware are not the ones that excel in presenting sexism, but companies Obsidian and Chris Avellone. I listed Bioware as being ham-fisted and amongst the companies that let their game, characters and narrative suffer just to try and push an agenda. They don't value making a good game first. Do you disagree? Then by all means elaborate on why (but since you avoid any elaboration on anything I'm not expecting anything from you, to be honest). I also never said that Bioware shouldn't be allowed to continue the way they have, but from my experience I don't feel like DA2 and DA:I have been shining examples of great RPGs. To me the first DA is still the best (and it also had strong female characters, gay romance, etc.). In the original I particularly enjoyed Shale which was a female.

    So men should get two romance options while women get one, and everybody else just gets zero representation in games?

    Where did I say this? My point was that trying to appeal to everyone's sexual orientation in a single game with all of your characters is pretty dumb. Once you start going down this road there are no limits to how far you can go to try and please everyone. The problem here is that you can't please everyone.
    If you start writing a bunch of characters and then go "Well shit, we need to have one for straight males, one for straight females, one for gay men, one for gay women, one for bi, etc." then you quickly just dumb your characters down and just turn it into a quantity shitshow.

    But what would in your mind be the ideal scenario? Instead of simply spewing vitriol by all means add to the discussion and tell me.

    I wish you were trolling. I really do.

    If there is one thing I hope it's something you do, because you haven't done anything but spit venom while contributining borderline nothing to the thread and the discussion.
    It's like you don't even understand that all you do is shit up the thread.
    To be honest, if you next reply is as banal and juvenile as your recent ones I will refrain from replying to you since all it does it makes the thread worse and worse, which is basically shitting on anyone actually wanting to discuss the topics OP brought up seriously. I will not play a part in shitting it up furhter.
    So either start replying, discussing, elaborating and sharing your thoughts seriously and stop wasting both my time and yours. Let alone shitting up the thread.

    If I don't get someone seriously trying to reply and discuss these subjects with me then I won't bother replying again to this thread. I see no point in trying to spark a discussion with people with no intention of doing so again and again.



  • @suplextrain said in Constructive Feedback: Equality, Diversity and Sexualization in Games:

    @thenerdtheword said in Constructive Feedback: Equality, Diversity and Sexualization in Games:

    In the interest of trying keep things civil I'll ignore this :grimacing:

    You say as you reply with a passive aggressive comment? Maybe don't make a comment like that at all next time, since you don't drive the discussion forward and you're not even being civil about it in the first place. You're only trying to win points, not treating it as a civil discussion.

    Dude, chill. I'm not trying to win any sort of points. This was me dropping the matter like you suggested while also trying to raise the level of discourse with the rest of my response.

    @suplextrain said in Constructive Feedback: Equality, Diversity and Sexualization in Games:

    I've not really played many Obsidian titles outside of KOTOR II and an attempted playthrough of Alpha Protocol. I just find on the whole their writing to be very wooden.

    I have absolutely no idea what to say about this. You find stuff written by people like Chris Avellone to be wooden? Well okay then. Chris and his work is so well respected that he is treated as a stretch goal for Kickstarter games like Planescape Tides of Numenera (the first game Planescape Torment which he was heavily involved in is regarded as one of the most well written games to date) and his talent is sought out everywhere. The way they write games opens up for more role playing and adds depth.

    Even though the the other writers at Obsidian are not really on par with Chris they're still well above the writers over at Bioware. The way they handle the "issues" you're talking about is leaps ahead of Bioware, both in terms of the writing and how they're handled in-game/In-universe.
    You can tell people like Josh Sawyer puts a lot of thought into his games from his replies on twitter and other social media.
    So if anything I advice you to try out more Obsidian games.

    I will check out more Obsidian stuff but I've found their older titles I've played a bit too exposition heavy when talking to characters. As in, you have to sit there while someone explains why things the way they are without any real flavour. BioWare's writing, at least ME2 onwards is all about the characters bringing their viewpoint to exposition which is something I tend to prefer.

    Writing and storytelling is very much a personal preference thing. Some people love one thing while others will actively stay away from it.



  • @suplextrain for somebody who plays the puritan and points out how others are being passive aggressive, you have to be one of the most passive aggressive users I've seen on these forums.

    You do not support equality. You support a definition of equality that is convenient for you. Your definition operates under the assumption that everybody is, by default, already treated equal by everyone else.

    I have provided some handy links to show you just HOW unequal the entertainment industry is in it's treatment of women and PoC.

    http://www.weforshe.org/statistics-of-women-in-television

    https://www.nyfa.edu/film-school-blog/gender-inequality-in-film/

    http://www.indiewire.com/2015/02/sorry-ladies-study-on-women-in-film-and-television-confirms-the-worst-65220/

    You claim that you do not like special treatment, yet promote male centric views and opinions. You ignore female/other opinions out of convenience.

    You do not like to be confronted with what you "percieve" to be agenda based opinions in your entertainment. I would love to see your guidelines for what qualifies as an agenda, because right now it seems like anything you are uncomfortable with could be considered an agenda. Every content creator from every form of entertainment express opinions in their works. You disapproval of heavy handedness is subjective at the very best.

    You purport that diversity weakens projects. That is your opinion. My opinion is that diversity helps to strengthen a product, and if a writer is unable to include diversity in said product, their own capablilties should be in question, and not the capabilities of the user.

    I, and many others HAVE been trying to have serious discussions with you. That you ignore the arguments against your own and the facts we set forth is beyond our control, so please stop playing the victim here.
    Also, please stop accusing others of lacking elaboration when you haven't been able to elaborate on anything other than expressing that it is your opinion.

    Please take this post as trolling. Please please please... I don't have enough time in my day to continue arguing with contrarian ignorants...



  • @Art said in Constructive Feedback: Equality, Diversity and Sexualization in Games:

    You're all just a bunch of sexist white heterosexual males.

    Naturally.



  • @Musou-Tensei said in Constructive Feedback: Equality, Diversity and Sexualization in Games:

    @Art said in Constructive Feedback: Equality, Diversity and Sexualization in Games:

    You're all just a bunch of sexist white heterosexual males.

    Naturally.

    alt text



  • i disliked nadine in uncharted 4, i did like her character and im all for equality but naughty dog including her was just so they could have diversity. Theres now way a woman can beat 2 men of sam and Nate's phsyic in a fight 2 on 1, one on one maybe but it bullshit to think a woman let alone a man could take on 2 men who are in the shape of nate and sam in a fight



  • lol she is supposed to be an expert martial artist, Nate and Sam are not, of course she can take on both at the same time! That's a ridiculous statement!



  • This thread shows why this is such a hard topic to discuss. As soon as there is an opposed opinion to someone's post, everybody feels the need to immediately retort and prove the comment wrong. In these styles of stubborn arguments, apparently the person with the last word is the only one who's correct. What's the harm in having different opinions. I remember acting the same way when "The Console Wars" were in full swing last generation. "Why would play PS3 when you can't play Halo?" And you know what happens? Nothing. Nobody changes their mind from a single comment. The only constructive thing you can do when you have an opposing opinion is to simply lay it out. No mud-slinging. No ganging up. Say what you think and let everybody else gobble it up how they please. Acting like an idiot towards someone you consider a bigot, only proves to others how you are also a bigot.



  • @El-Shmiablo said in Constructive Feedback: Equality, Diversity and Sexualization in Games:

    You do not support equality. You support a definition of equality that is convenient for you. Your definition operates under the assumption that everybody is, by default, already treated equal by everyone else.

    I never said or implied the things you said. I never even suggested that I think that the world is equal. By all point out precisely where I did this.
    I only ever talked about my own beliefs and values and why I don't like things like mistreatment or special treatment. Please pay more attention and stop twisting what I'm saying.

    This in turn makes your links utterly pointless. They're also just random examples in a far more complex issue.
    I also don't really put much stock in the kind of links you provide and the "research" that was done. For example the weforshe link says it's backed by research done by the Geena Davis Institute on Gender in Media, which then in turn says that "All facts are supported by research conducted by Stacy Smith, Ph.D. at the USC Annenberg School for Communication & Journalism". It doesn't say how this research was done or anything of the sort, just that some "research" was done.

    Don't get me wrong. I don't think the world is "equal". I also doubt that the world will ever be due to the nature of humanity. But I don't think that these kind of links actually say anything of worth and are in the end pretty much pointless, despite being admirable. To make any findings actually worth their salt you need to know how they came to that conlusion, otherwise you're simply taking their word for it.

    You claim that you do not like special treatment, yet promote male centric views and opinions. You ignore female/other opinions out of convenience.

    You know I'm getting pretty tired of you constantly twisting what I said and just flat out lying just to suit your arguments. I won't even bother to ask you to point where I said these things either since at this point I know you won't even bother doing something so simple as this after avoiding answer simple questions and more countless times already.
    This is not you trying to hold a discussion, but to simply tell me that everything I say, think and do is just flat out wrong because it's not in line with your ideas and beliefs. This is extremely close-minded thinking.
    You're not even trying to see from the viewpoint of others, only to force your ideas onto others.

    You do not like to be confronted with what you "percieve" to be agenda based opinions in your entertainment. I would love to see your guidelines for what qualifies as an agenda, because right now it seems like anything you are uncomfortable with could be considered an agenda. Every content creator from every form of entertainment express opinions in their works. You disapproval of heavy handedness is subjective at the very best.

    Since you apparantely seem to know me so well what exactly do I view as uncomfortable?

    Also of course my disapproval is subjective, it's my own opinion. I think and feel certain things just like everyone else. I prefer better integrated material over a heavy handed one. This is a preference. Some people might think that heavy handedness is more appealing. Heck some people might think that games like Mafia 3 are heavy handed in how it treats topics like racism while games from Bioware are masterful at handling racism.
    It's an opinion. Am I not allowed to have an opinion now or something?
    Also let's discuss these games here then. What did you think about how Mafia 3 handled racism? What about how say New Vegas handled sexism? Which Bioware game do you think handles topics like racism, sexism and so on the best and why? I mean I can only assume by the way you talk that you disagree that Bioware games don't tend to be heavy handed in how they handle these topics so I'd be curious to hear why you think so.

    You purport that diversity weakens projects.

    Nope. I probably like Mafia 3 more than most people and you will not find me complain about Lincoln being half black or how the game handles racism and stuff. My favorite character in the game was in fact Father James played by Gordon Greene.
    If what you say is true then obviously I would not have liked Mafia 3 and I would even have jumped on the hate bandwagon for the game.
    I have countless times by now said that I don't mind diversity at all, so long as it's handled and integrated well. However many times this feels forced or heavy handed, which I don't like. That's understandable, yes? Or should I always like something simple because it's strives for diversity? If so, why? Am I a sexist asshole or something otherwise?

    I, and many others HAVE been trying to have serious discussions with you.

    Do I really need to direct you at your own posts in this very thread where you have done anything but? You have even avoided answering simple questions directed at you countless times. If you're such and advocate of driving this discussion why have you had so much trouble with something as simple as this while constantly twisting almost everything that I've said?

    I mean just look at your post right now, you're not trying to discuss anything with me. You're simply trying to tell me that I'm wrong and stupid. Is this how you discuss stuff with other people?

    I mean what's even your point? That true equality doesn't exist? When have I stated otherwise? I don't think true equality exists but that doesn't mean that I can't strive for it. So I'm assuming we're in agreement with this?
    So now to go one step further, what are you trying to say here? That we should try and integrate diversity into as much media as possible? If so, why? To make a world more equal and less sexist or something? How would forcing diversity into everything make the world more equal and less sexist? Can you explain this to me in preferably as much detail as possible since I frankly don't see it.
    I don't see how games is the best vessel to try and solve these problems you seem to be so concerned about.

    Once again I ask that you elaborate. Can you actually do this or do I have to keep asking again and again? Is this not about forming a greater understanding?

    That you ignore the arguments against your own and the facts we set forth is beyond our control, so please stop playing the victim here.

    Also, please stop accusing others of lacking elaboration when you haven't been able to elaborate on anything other than expressing that it is your opinion.

    What arguments exactly am I avoiding? Also this goes right back at you. How come you can't even elaborate or answer simple questions? Why do you just ignore things said or twist them?
    I also not once played the victim here. I am only getting frustrated that I can't seem to get you to explain what you mean, what your point is and to simply hold a normal discussion with you. I mean right now you're once again not even trying to discuss anything. You make no attempts to get back on topic, you simply want to point the finger at me. I am NOT playing the victim here, I want to undertand you but you make it incredibly difficult.
    I mean what exactly am I supposed to do when I keep asking stuff that you simply ignore? Am I supposed to sit here and guess what you mean?

    In all honesty I should've probably given up on trying to discuss this long ago but I genuinelly want to not only test to see if my ideas hold up but to hear what people of differing opinion has to say. So please can you start explaining more what you mean, what your point is, what you think should be done, etc.? Doesn't this directly serve your purpose as well?

    @thenerdtheword said in Constructive Feedback: Equality, Diversity and Sexualization in Games:

    I will check out more Obsidian stuff but I've found their older titles I've played a bit too exposition heavy when talking to characters. As in, you have to sit there while someone explains why things the way they are without any real flavour. BioWare's writing, at least ME2 onwards is all about the characters bringing their viewpoint to exposition which is something I tend to prefer.

    Well naturally the storytelling aspects in more modern games like Mass Effect 2 is much greater than in say KotOR2 and playing through older games can be more difficult by default due to their age, but I personally think that you should give games like Planescape: Torment, Fallout: New Vegas and Neverwinter Nights 2: Mask of the Betrayer another (or a new) shot.
    Chris Avellone is also involved in the development of Divinity: Original Sin 2, Torment: Tides of Numenera and Prey 2, so they could be worth keeping an eye on.

    As for Mass Effect 2 in particular I found it to be a very good game and it's my favorite ME game. Heck probably my favorite Bioware game in recent memory. The focus on the characters were interesting and I liked how they didn't make characters like Samara romancable and how they handled the relationship (and how it progressed) with Liara, especially in the DLC. It felt more natural.

    Writing and storytelling is very much a personal preference thing. Some people love one thing while others will actively stay away from it.

    Of course.
    I personally value realism and character motivations pretty highly. This is why I really don't care for the new Lara Croft yet many people love her. On the other hand I liked Jade from Beyond Good and Evil. Neither were particularly deep but I found Jade to be more belieavable and in turn more likeable.
    But if someone found Lara to behave very realistically and her motivations to always be clear then that's their opinion. The only thing I can do is to ask them why they thought so. Heck who knows, maybe they can make some convincing arguments and change my opinion on Lara or vice versa?

    @thenerdtheword said in Constructive Feedback: Equality, Diversity and Sexualization in Games:

    airport gif

    Made me think of this:
    Youtube Video

    @FF7Cloud said in Constructive Feedback: Equality, Diversity and Sexualization in Games:

    i disliked nadine in uncharted 4, i did like her character and im all for equality but naughty dog including her was just so they could have diversity. Theres now way a woman can beat 2 men of sam and Nate's phsyic in a fight 2 on 1, one on one maybe but it bullshit to think a woman let alone a man could take on 2 men who are in the shape of nate and sam in a fight

    I am a bit torn on Nadie. While I don't think it's that farfetched for Nadine to beat Drake and Sam considering they're just brawlers with no real training and that she should be extremely well trained considering her background, I do feel that her character is pretty pointless. I also didn't really care for her (or Rafe for that matter). Rafe did however have some moments where he stood out while Nadine never really felt necessary to the story.

    But I do like that they at least beefed up Nadine so that she looked more muscular, unlike Lara Croft in the recent reboot and RotTR.

    @frasafrase said in Constructive Feedback: Equality, Diversity and Sexualization in Games:

    This thread shows why this is such a hard topic to discuss. As soon as there is an opposed opinion to someone's post, everybody feels the need to immediately retort and prove the comment wrong. In these styles of stubborn arguments, apparently the person with the last word is the only one who's correct. What's the harm in having different opinions. I remember acting the same way when "The Console Wars" were in full swing last generation. "Why would play PS3 when you can't play Halo?" And you know what happens? Nothing. Nobody changes their mind from a single comment. The only constructive thing you can do when you have an opposing opinion is to simply lay it out. No mud-slinging. No ganging up. Say what you think and let everybody else gobble it up how they please. Acting like an idiot towards someone you consider a bigot, only proves to others how you are also a bigot.

    I don't know what it is exactly with these topics in particular that can make people behave so strangely. On both sides.

    Even though it's not perfect I think a lot of people would benefit from watching at least the first hour of this video, since it raises some good points and can hopefully make people more open minded:

    Youtube Video



  • @suplextrain yea she was trained in martial arts and stuff i dont know it just seemed like naughty dogs pandering to people but i may be looking cynically at it aswell

    and i think everyone agrees that if u take her out of the story nothing changes.



  • Yeah. Kinda stopped reading after the second paragraph.
    I can see that, despite what you said earlier, you clearly have no interest in hearing any point of view contrary to your own.

    GG. I quit. You win all the imaginary internet points you seem so obsessed with.



  • @suplextrain Whoa, there pal. You are guilty of this too. Just because you are not so vulgar with wording, doesn't mean you get to take high road. Nit picking every little detail of someone's post is going overboard. It seems like you didn't really understand what I said earlier. Live and let live. But you are missing that second part.



  • @suplextrain & @FF7Cloud I liked Nadine, her character and purpose in the story was to fit into the role of the outsider being brought into the madcap world of treasure hunting. She constantly questions Rafe's motives and she is the only character who eventually says F-This and leaves Nate and Rafe to fight to the death amongst the treasure they have been driven to near madness to find.

    As for her abilities and the realistic-ness of her fights with Nate and Sam. She is the head of a PMC with countless years of training and god knows how many jobs under her belt. She is the most experienced person combat-wise in the game. It is unrealistic that her fight with Nate and Sam ends in a stalemate of sorts, she should have wiped the floor with them like she does when she first fights Nate. They're scrappy treasure hunters, she is the pro.



  • @frasafrase said in Constructive Feedback: Equality, Diversity and Sexualization in Games:

    This thread shows why this is such a hard topic to discuss. As soon as there is an opposed opinion to someone's post, everybody feels the need to immediately retort and prove the comment wrong. In these styles of stubborn arguments, apparently the person with the last word is the only one who's correct. What's the harm in having different opinions. I remember acting the same way when "The Console Wars" were in full swing last generation. "Why would play PS3 when you can't play Halo?" And you know what happens? Nothing. Nobody changes their mind from a single comment. The only constructive thing you can do when you have an opposing opinion is to simply lay it out. No mud-slinging. No ganging up. Say what you think and let everybody else gobble it up how they please. Acting like an idiot towards someone you consider a bigot, only proves to others how you are also a bigot.

    But that's how mankind works, political debates are no different, don't kid yourself, everyone's (subconscious) goal in a discussion us to prove your arguments right and to disprove the opposition.



  • @Musou-Tensei What happens after you fail to convince or disprove the opposition is what I refer to then. Or at least a person's ability to realize that the other side may not be easy swayed at the time. I'm OK with everybody getting their point across to change someone else's opinions for the better (whatever "better" is). But seriously, sometimes letting it go for now is the best option you can do. The more you blatantly butt heads with someone, the less likely they are going to suddenly have a change of heart. I've many arguments where the other person was wrong NO MATTER WHAT! But a few days later, I see how they were right and I totally agree now.



  • @El-Shmiablo said in Constructive Feedback: Equality, Diversity and Sexualization in Games:

    Yeah. Kinda stopped reading after the second paragraph.
    I can see that, despite what you said earlier, you clearly have no interest in hearing any point of view contrary to your own.

    The irony of this statement does not escape me.
    But I'll be here if you ever actually want to voice your opinion and discuss something instead of basically just repeatedly calling me an idiot.
    You have added absolutely nothing of value to this thread. So if you no longer feel like posting then all the better.

    @frasafrase said in Constructive Feedback: Equality, Diversity and Sexualization in Games:

    @suplextrain Whoa, there pal. You are guilty of this too. Just because you are not so vulgar with wording, doesn't mean you get to take high road. Nit picking every little detail of someone's post is going overboard. It seems like you didn't really understand what I said earlier. Live and let live. But you are missing that second part.

    Guilty of what? By all means elaborate.
    You're also doing this thing where you simply state that "You don't get it" without explaining how or why. So how am I ever gonna Get it if you don't explain what it is you mean?

    @thenerdtheword said in Constructive Feedback: Equality, Diversity and Sexualization in Games:

    @suplextrain & @FF7Cloud I liked Nadine, her character and purpose in the story was to fit into the role of the outsider being brought into the madcap world of treasure hunting. She constantly questions Rafe's motives and she is the only character who eventually says F-This and leaves Nate and Rafe to fight to the death amongst the treasure they have been driven to near madness to find.

    I thought her role was honestly pretty pointless, even though she obviously did have a presence in the story.
    I considered her more as the yin to Rafe's yang. Same as with Nate and Sam. One was the more obsessed party, the one that just simply couldn't let go of finding the treasure. The other was the more sensible one that tried to rein the other one in.
    I don't know how to do spoilers, but I think you'll know what I mean when I say that when one partnership didn't work out the other stuck together until the very end.

    I can understand why some people liked Nadine (Huber for example liked her) but I feel that they should've either done more with Nadine (and Rafe) or drop her entirely. With Rafe I think he should've been more like how he was towards the end of the game earlier and gotten even more obsessed and crazy. Basically I feel that the villains of U4 were underbaked.

    @frasafrase said in Constructive Feedback: Equality, Diversity and Sexualization in Games:

    @Musou-Tensei What happens after you fail to convince or disprove the opposition is what I refer to then. Or at least a person's ability to realize that the other side may not be easy swayed at the time. I'm OK with everybody getting their point across to change someone else's opinions for the better (whatever "better" is). But seriously, sometimes letting it go for now is the best option you can do. The more you blatantly butt heads with someone, the less likely they are going to suddenly have a change of heart. I've many arguments where the other person was wrong NO MATTER WHAT! But a few days later, I see how they were right and I totally agree now.

    If you mean that I have trouble letting go in a discussion, then yes that's true. I see discussion as a way to test if my ideas hold up, I want to challenge them.
    Every single time someone avoids elaborating, avoids answering questions... basically avoids the discussion and simply make blank statements and accusations then only conclusion I can come to is that my ideas hold up while theirs don't. Now I don't care at all about winning or losing a discussion, not one bit. I simply want to test and see if my ideas and beliefs hold water. I have been proven wrong many many times and I admitted it whenever it happened, so it's not like I'm close minded. I simply want convincing arguments, otherwise how am I supposed to be convinced?
    That said sometimes it's simply about me wanting to understand the other party.

    Does my personality result in clashes? Oh undeniably. Especially since I tend to be pretty blunt and direct. I tend to not dance around what I mean or sugarcoat my words in a discussion online. IRL face-to-face it's much easier to control the tone and so on to make it come across that I'm not aggressive, but online it's simply text and text can easily be misinterpreted.



  • If refusing to listen to other people means your ideas hold up, then yeah man, they're rock solid.