Constructive Feedback: Equality, Diversity and Sexualization in Games



  • i disliked nadine in uncharted 4, i did like her character and im all for equality but naughty dog including her was just so they could have diversity. Theres now way a woman can beat 2 men of sam and Nate's phsyic in a fight 2 on 1, one on one maybe but it bullshit to think a woman let alone a man could take on 2 men who are in the shape of nate and sam in a fight



  • lol she is supposed to be an expert martial artist, Nate and Sam are not, of course she can take on both at the same time! That's a ridiculous statement!



  • This thread shows why this is such a hard topic to discuss. As soon as there is an opposed opinion to someone's post, everybody feels the need to immediately retort and prove the comment wrong. In these styles of stubborn arguments, apparently the person with the last word is the only one who's correct. What's the harm in having different opinions. I remember acting the same way when "The Console Wars" were in full swing last generation. "Why would play PS3 when you can't play Halo?" And you know what happens? Nothing. Nobody changes their mind from a single comment. The only constructive thing you can do when you have an opposing opinion is to simply lay it out. No mud-slinging. No ganging up. Say what you think and let everybody else gobble it up how they please. Acting like an idiot towards someone you consider a bigot, only proves to others how you are also a bigot.



  • @El-Shmiablo said in Constructive Feedback: Equality, Diversity and Sexualization in Games:

    You do not support equality. You support a definition of equality that is convenient for you. Your definition operates under the assumption that everybody is, by default, already treated equal by everyone else.

    I never said or implied the things you said. I never even suggested that I think that the world is equal. By all point out precisely where I did this.
    I only ever talked about my own beliefs and values and why I don't like things like mistreatment or special treatment. Please pay more attention and stop twisting what I'm saying.

    This in turn makes your links utterly pointless. They're also just random examples in a far more complex issue.
    I also don't really put much stock in the kind of links you provide and the "research" that was done. For example the weforshe link says it's backed by research done by the Geena Davis Institute on Gender in Media, which then in turn says that "All facts are supported by research conducted by Stacy Smith, Ph.D. at the USC Annenberg School for Communication & Journalism". It doesn't say how this research was done or anything of the sort, just that some "research" was done.

    Don't get me wrong. I don't think the world is "equal". I also doubt that the world will ever be due to the nature of humanity. But I don't think that these kind of links actually say anything of worth and are in the end pretty much pointless, despite being admirable. To make any findings actually worth their salt you need to know how they came to that conlusion, otherwise you're simply taking their word for it.

    You claim that you do not like special treatment, yet promote male centric views and opinions. You ignore female/other opinions out of convenience.

    You know I'm getting pretty tired of you constantly twisting what I said and just flat out lying just to suit your arguments. I won't even bother to ask you to point where I said these things either since at this point I know you won't even bother doing something so simple as this after avoiding answer simple questions and more countless times already.
    This is not you trying to hold a discussion, but to simply tell me that everything I say, think and do is just flat out wrong because it's not in line with your ideas and beliefs. This is extremely close-minded thinking.
    You're not even trying to see from the viewpoint of others, only to force your ideas onto others.

    You do not like to be confronted with what you "percieve" to be agenda based opinions in your entertainment. I would love to see your guidelines for what qualifies as an agenda, because right now it seems like anything you are uncomfortable with could be considered an agenda. Every content creator from every form of entertainment express opinions in their works. You disapproval of heavy handedness is subjective at the very best.

    Since you apparantely seem to know me so well what exactly do I view as uncomfortable?

    Also of course my disapproval is subjective, it's my own opinion. I think and feel certain things just like everyone else. I prefer better integrated material over a heavy handed one. This is a preference. Some people might think that heavy handedness is more appealing. Heck some people might think that games like Mafia 3 are heavy handed in how it treats topics like racism while games from Bioware are masterful at handling racism.
    It's an opinion. Am I not allowed to have an opinion now or something?
    Also let's discuss these games here then. What did you think about how Mafia 3 handled racism? What about how say New Vegas handled sexism? Which Bioware game do you think handles topics like racism, sexism and so on the best and why? I mean I can only assume by the way you talk that you disagree that Bioware games don't tend to be heavy handed in how they handle these topics so I'd be curious to hear why you think so.

    You purport that diversity weakens projects.

    Nope. I probably like Mafia 3 more than most people and you will not find me complain about Lincoln being half black or how the game handles racism and stuff. My favorite character in the game was in fact Father James played by Gordon Greene.
    If what you say is true then obviously I would not have liked Mafia 3 and I would even have jumped on the hate bandwagon for the game.
    I have countless times by now said that I don't mind diversity at all, so long as it's handled and integrated well. However many times this feels forced or heavy handed, which I don't like. That's understandable, yes? Or should I always like something simple because it's strives for diversity? If so, why? Am I a sexist asshole or something otherwise?

    I, and many others HAVE been trying to have serious discussions with you.

    Do I really need to direct you at your own posts in this very thread where you have done anything but? You have even avoided answering simple questions directed at you countless times. If you're such and advocate of driving this discussion why have you had so much trouble with something as simple as this while constantly twisting almost everything that I've said?

    I mean just look at your post right now, you're not trying to discuss anything with me. You're simply trying to tell me that I'm wrong and stupid. Is this how you discuss stuff with other people?

    I mean what's even your point? That true equality doesn't exist? When have I stated otherwise? I don't think true equality exists but that doesn't mean that I can't strive for it. So I'm assuming we're in agreement with this?
    So now to go one step further, what are you trying to say here? That we should try and integrate diversity into as much media as possible? If so, why? To make a world more equal and less sexist or something? How would forcing diversity into everything make the world more equal and less sexist? Can you explain this to me in preferably as much detail as possible since I frankly don't see it.
    I don't see how games is the best vessel to try and solve these problems you seem to be so concerned about.

    Once again I ask that you elaborate. Can you actually do this or do I have to keep asking again and again? Is this not about forming a greater understanding?

    That you ignore the arguments against your own and the facts we set forth is beyond our control, so please stop playing the victim here.

    Also, please stop accusing others of lacking elaboration when you haven't been able to elaborate on anything other than expressing that it is your opinion.

    What arguments exactly am I avoiding? Also this goes right back at you. How come you can't even elaborate or answer simple questions? Why do you just ignore things said or twist them?
    I also not once played the victim here. I am only getting frustrated that I can't seem to get you to explain what you mean, what your point is and to simply hold a normal discussion with you. I mean right now you're once again not even trying to discuss anything. You make no attempts to get back on topic, you simply want to point the finger at me. I am NOT playing the victim here, I want to undertand you but you make it incredibly difficult.
    I mean what exactly am I supposed to do when I keep asking stuff that you simply ignore? Am I supposed to sit here and guess what you mean?

    In all honesty I should've probably given up on trying to discuss this long ago but I genuinelly want to not only test to see if my ideas hold up but to hear what people of differing opinion has to say. So please can you start explaining more what you mean, what your point is, what you think should be done, etc.? Doesn't this directly serve your purpose as well?

    @thenerdtheword said in Constructive Feedback: Equality, Diversity and Sexualization in Games:

    I will check out more Obsidian stuff but I've found their older titles I've played a bit too exposition heavy when talking to characters. As in, you have to sit there while someone explains why things the way they are without any real flavour. BioWare's writing, at least ME2 onwards is all about the characters bringing their viewpoint to exposition which is something I tend to prefer.

    Well naturally the storytelling aspects in more modern games like Mass Effect 2 is much greater than in say KotOR2 and playing through older games can be more difficult by default due to their age, but I personally think that you should give games like Planescape: Torment, Fallout: New Vegas and Neverwinter Nights 2: Mask of the Betrayer another (or a new) shot.
    Chris Avellone is also involved in the development of Divinity: Original Sin 2, Torment: Tides of Numenera and Prey 2, so they could be worth keeping an eye on.

    As for Mass Effect 2 in particular I found it to be a very good game and it's my favorite ME game. Heck probably my favorite Bioware game in recent memory. The focus on the characters were interesting and I liked how they didn't make characters like Samara romancable and how they handled the relationship (and how it progressed) with Liara, especially in the DLC. It felt more natural.

    Writing and storytelling is very much a personal preference thing. Some people love one thing while others will actively stay away from it.

    Of course.
    I personally value realism and character motivations pretty highly. This is why I really don't care for the new Lara Croft yet many people love her. On the other hand I liked Jade from Beyond Good and Evil. Neither were particularly deep but I found Jade to be more belieavable and in turn more likeable.
    But if someone found Lara to behave very realistically and her motivations to always be clear then that's their opinion. The only thing I can do is to ask them why they thought so. Heck who knows, maybe they can make some convincing arguments and change my opinion on Lara or vice versa?

    @thenerdtheword said in Constructive Feedback: Equality, Diversity and Sexualization in Games:

    airport gif

    Made me think of this:
    Youtube Video

    @FF7Cloud said in Constructive Feedback: Equality, Diversity and Sexualization in Games:

    i disliked nadine in uncharted 4, i did like her character and im all for equality but naughty dog including her was just so they could have diversity. Theres now way a woman can beat 2 men of sam and Nate's phsyic in a fight 2 on 1, one on one maybe but it bullshit to think a woman let alone a man could take on 2 men who are in the shape of nate and sam in a fight

    I am a bit torn on Nadie. While I don't think it's that farfetched for Nadine to beat Drake and Sam considering they're just brawlers with no real training and that she should be extremely well trained considering her background, I do feel that her character is pretty pointless. I also didn't really care for her (or Rafe for that matter). Rafe did however have some moments where he stood out while Nadine never really felt necessary to the story.

    But I do like that they at least beefed up Nadine so that she looked more muscular, unlike Lara Croft in the recent reboot and RotTR.

    @frasafrase said in Constructive Feedback: Equality, Diversity and Sexualization in Games:

    This thread shows why this is such a hard topic to discuss. As soon as there is an opposed opinion to someone's post, everybody feels the need to immediately retort and prove the comment wrong. In these styles of stubborn arguments, apparently the person with the last word is the only one who's correct. What's the harm in having different opinions. I remember acting the same way when "The Console Wars" were in full swing last generation. "Why would play PS3 when you can't play Halo?" And you know what happens? Nothing. Nobody changes their mind from a single comment. The only constructive thing you can do when you have an opposing opinion is to simply lay it out. No mud-slinging. No ganging up. Say what you think and let everybody else gobble it up how they please. Acting like an idiot towards someone you consider a bigot, only proves to others how you are also a bigot.

    I don't know what it is exactly with these topics in particular that can make people behave so strangely. On both sides.

    Even though it's not perfect I think a lot of people would benefit from watching at least the first hour of this video, since it raises some good points and can hopefully make people more open minded:

    Youtube Video



  • @suplextrain yea she was trained in martial arts and stuff i dont know it just seemed like naughty dogs pandering to people but i may be looking cynically at it aswell

    and i think everyone agrees that if u take her out of the story nothing changes.



  • Yeah. Kinda stopped reading after the second paragraph.
    I can see that, despite what you said earlier, you clearly have no interest in hearing any point of view contrary to your own.

    GG. I quit. You win all the imaginary internet points you seem so obsessed with.



  • @suplextrain Whoa, there pal. You are guilty of this too. Just because you are not so vulgar with wording, doesn't mean you get to take high road. Nit picking every little detail of someone's post is going overboard. It seems like you didn't really understand what I said earlier. Live and let live. But you are missing that second part.



  • @suplextrain & @FF7Cloud I liked Nadine, her character and purpose in the story was to fit into the role of the outsider being brought into the madcap world of treasure hunting. She constantly questions Rafe's motives and she is the only character who eventually says F-This and leaves Nate and Rafe to fight to the death amongst the treasure they have been driven to near madness to find.

    As for her abilities and the realistic-ness of her fights with Nate and Sam. She is the head of a PMC with countless years of training and god knows how many jobs under her belt. She is the most experienced person combat-wise in the game. It is unrealistic that her fight with Nate and Sam ends in a stalemate of sorts, she should have wiped the floor with them like she does when she first fights Nate. They're scrappy treasure hunters, she is the pro.



  • @frasafrase said in Constructive Feedback: Equality, Diversity and Sexualization in Games:

    This thread shows why this is such a hard topic to discuss. As soon as there is an opposed opinion to someone's post, everybody feels the need to immediately retort and prove the comment wrong. In these styles of stubborn arguments, apparently the person with the last word is the only one who's correct. What's the harm in having different opinions. I remember acting the same way when "The Console Wars" were in full swing last generation. "Why would play PS3 when you can't play Halo?" And you know what happens? Nothing. Nobody changes their mind from a single comment. The only constructive thing you can do when you have an opposing opinion is to simply lay it out. No mud-slinging. No ganging up. Say what you think and let everybody else gobble it up how they please. Acting like an idiot towards someone you consider a bigot, only proves to others how you are also a bigot.

    But that's how mankind works, political debates are no different, don't kid yourself, everyone's (subconscious) goal in a discussion us to prove your arguments right and to disprove the opposition.



  • @Musou-Tensei What happens after you fail to convince or disprove the opposition is what I refer to then. Or at least a person's ability to realize that the other side may not be easy swayed at the time. I'm OK with everybody getting their point across to change someone else's opinions for the better (whatever "better" is). But seriously, sometimes letting it go for now is the best option you can do. The more you blatantly butt heads with someone, the less likely they are going to suddenly have a change of heart. I've many arguments where the other person was wrong NO MATTER WHAT! But a few days later, I see how they were right and I totally agree now.



  • @El-Shmiablo said in Constructive Feedback: Equality, Diversity and Sexualization in Games:

    Yeah. Kinda stopped reading after the second paragraph.
    I can see that, despite what you said earlier, you clearly have no interest in hearing any point of view contrary to your own.

    The irony of this statement does not escape me.
    But I'll be here if you ever actually want to voice your opinion and discuss something instead of basically just repeatedly calling me an idiot.
    You have added absolutely nothing of value to this thread. So if you no longer feel like posting then all the better.

    @frasafrase said in Constructive Feedback: Equality, Diversity and Sexualization in Games:

    @suplextrain Whoa, there pal. You are guilty of this too. Just because you are not so vulgar with wording, doesn't mean you get to take high road. Nit picking every little detail of someone's post is going overboard. It seems like you didn't really understand what I said earlier. Live and let live. But you are missing that second part.

    Guilty of what? By all means elaborate.
    You're also doing this thing where you simply state that "You don't get it" without explaining how or why. So how am I ever gonna Get it if you don't explain what it is you mean?

    @thenerdtheword said in Constructive Feedback: Equality, Diversity and Sexualization in Games:

    @suplextrain & @FF7Cloud I liked Nadine, her character and purpose in the story was to fit into the role of the outsider being brought into the madcap world of treasure hunting. She constantly questions Rafe's motives and she is the only character who eventually says F-This and leaves Nate and Rafe to fight to the death amongst the treasure they have been driven to near madness to find.

    I thought her role was honestly pretty pointless, even though she obviously did have a presence in the story.
    I considered her more as the yin to Rafe's yang. Same as with Nate and Sam. One was the more obsessed party, the one that just simply couldn't let go of finding the treasure. The other was the more sensible one that tried to rein the other one in.
    I don't know how to do spoilers, but I think you'll know what I mean when I say that when one partnership didn't work out the other stuck together until the very end.

    I can understand why some people liked Nadine (Huber for example liked her) but I feel that they should've either done more with Nadine (and Rafe) or drop her entirely. With Rafe I think he should've been more like how he was towards the end of the game earlier and gotten even more obsessed and crazy. Basically I feel that the villains of U4 were underbaked.

    @frasafrase said in Constructive Feedback: Equality, Diversity and Sexualization in Games:

    @Musou-Tensei What happens after you fail to convince or disprove the opposition is what I refer to then. Or at least a person's ability to realize that the other side may not be easy swayed at the time. I'm OK with everybody getting their point across to change someone else's opinions for the better (whatever "better" is). But seriously, sometimes letting it go for now is the best option you can do. The more you blatantly butt heads with someone, the less likely they are going to suddenly have a change of heart. I've many arguments where the other person was wrong NO MATTER WHAT! But a few days later, I see how they were right and I totally agree now.

    If you mean that I have trouble letting go in a discussion, then yes that's true. I see discussion as a way to test if my ideas hold up, I want to challenge them.
    Every single time someone avoids elaborating, avoids answering questions... basically avoids the discussion and simply make blank statements and accusations then only conclusion I can come to is that my ideas hold up while theirs don't. Now I don't care at all about winning or losing a discussion, not one bit. I simply want to test and see if my ideas and beliefs hold water. I have been proven wrong many many times and I admitted it whenever it happened, so it's not like I'm close minded. I simply want convincing arguments, otherwise how am I supposed to be convinced?
    That said sometimes it's simply about me wanting to understand the other party.

    Does my personality result in clashes? Oh undeniably. Especially since I tend to be pretty blunt and direct. I tend to not dance around what I mean or sugarcoat my words in a discussion online. IRL face-to-face it's much easier to control the tone and so on to make it come across that I'm not aggressive, but online it's simply text and text can easily be misinterpreted.



  • If refusing to listen to other people means your ideas hold up, then yeah man, they're rock solid.



  • @suplextrain You bet. You are right.

    Is that what you want to hear?

    I utterly and entirely agree with you.

    Did I say that right? Oh, king of debate. Oh, lord of opinions.

    Please go on.



  • @frasafrase Arguing with people like that is often fruitless. They hear what they want to hear. Give them opinions and they want facts. Give them facts and they want sources. Give them sources and they question the validity. You can't win.

    Oh well.

    So hey. The new season of Jessica Jones will have all female directors. I'm excite.



  • @frasafrase said in Constructive Feedback: Equality, Diversity and Sexualization in Games:

    @suplextrain You bet. You are right.

    Is that what you want to hear?

    I utterly and entirely agree with you.

    Did I say that right? Oh, king of debate. Oh, lord of opinions.

    Please go on.

    Do you intentionally not read what I type? Here, I'll quote myself:
    Now I don't care at all about winning or losing a discussion, not one bit. I simply want to test and see if my ideas and beliefs hold water. I have been proven wrong many many times and I admitted it whenever it happened, so it's not like I'm close minded. I simply want convincing arguments, otherwise how am I supposed to be convinced?
    That said sometimes it's simply about me wanting to understand the other party.

    From the things I said above, how did you come to the conclusion you just did?

    I even asked you to clarify, I'll once again quote myself:
    Guilty of what? By all means elaborate.
    You're also doing this thing where you simply state that "You don't get it" without explaining how or why. So how am I ever gonna Get it if you don't explain what it is you mean?

    I am asking you to explain. I am not telling you that you're wrong and that I'm right. I am literally and directly asking you to explain why you think these things so I can understand your viewpoint. Based on the arguments you present I might even agree that I might be the things you say I am.

    Are my posts really this confusing that you can misinterpret their meaning so hard? Do oyu seriously view me as the close-minded person here when I repeatedly ask you and other people to elaborate and explain? To actually discuss?
    Well if you don't want to discuss then simply say so, because these comments you and El Shmiablo make really add absolutely nothing to this thread.
    I'm discussing stuff like Nadine, Bioware and Obsidian with thenerdtheword now and I think it's pretty pleasant and interesting. Why don't you try and contribute to the thread as well or at least try and answer simple questions?
    Again to repeat I do not care about winning or losing here. I want to discuss stuff, to understand what you mean, why you think the stuff you do and to challenge my ideas.

    @El-Shmiablo said in Constructive Feedback: Equality, Diversity and Sexualization in Games:
    The new season of Jessica Jones will have all female directors. I'm excite.

    Why do you think all female directors adds so much to the project? I'm assuming you think it's good that more female directors get work? Do you think these particular directors are good and is there any specific work they've done prior that you enjoyed? Any particular reason you're excited?



  • @suplextrain

    By all means elaborate

    OK let me elaborate.

    Me: "You force you're opinions too strongly"

    You: "What do mean? Please elaborate, all I'm doing is forcing my opinions strongly"

    I have trouble letting go in a discussion

    Me: "..."

    That's it. Let go sooner. That's it. You ask me to spell it out. That's all I'm saying. Do you read? Come in? Please copy? A single sentence.

    Do you intentionally not read what I type? Here, I'll quote myself:

    Live and let live. But you are missing that second part.

    I'm not aggressive

    Tell that to the ten page essay's you send as replies to single line responses. And bolded paragraphs.

    Are my posts really this confusing that you can misinterpret their meaning so hard?



  • @suplextrain said in Constructive Feedback: Equality, Diversity and Sexualization in Games:

    @El-Shmiablo said in Constructive Feedback: Equality, Diversity and Sexualization in Games:
    The new season of Jessica Jones will have all female directors. I'm excite.

    Why do you think all female directors adds so much to the project? I'm assuming you think it's good that more female directors get work? Do you think these particular directors are good and is there any specific work they've done prior that you enjoyed? Any particular reason you're excited?

    In this respect they will be better geared to produce a whole season of content made from a female point of view which is a big part of the core of the show.



  • @thenerdtheword Well, that, and because of this wonderful post I found on Reddit:

    "SQUID_FUCKER said:

    I'm with you here. These types of pro-female sentiments are always so divisive on here. Either through ignorance, misunderstanding of the issue at hand or just simple misogyny. The fact that the top comment is, 'who gives a flying fuck what the sex of the person directing the episodes is' is both embarrassing and completely missing the point of the issue and why this is important.

    It's been proven time and time again women in the entertainment industry, especially behind the scenes or below the line (and probably above the line as well but I don't really have any personal knowledge there), are at an extreme disadvantage compared to their male counterparts. I work in the industry, have female friends who do as well and I have dated women who were crew members.

    It was with my last ex that I saw personally how much of an uphill battle she faced and watched her lose out to her male counterparts who were sometimes far less qualified in terms of previous work, skill level and time in the industry. I watched her work three times as hard as I would for the same exact job. It really opened my eyes and brought the issue home to a personal level for me.

    She once lost out on an A/C gig to a PA who had never before worked in the camera department, when she was a skilled operator with plenty of television credits under her belt because the director didn't think a woman would be able to hold 'the big heavy camera all day long'. She once had a producer straight up tell her, 'if you want to work in this business, you better get used to opening your legs and shutting your mouth.' If I wasn't also in the same industry and department, I would've driven to set and punched him in the mouth.

    Hell, I've gotten gigs I was less qualified than her for while she never received so much as a callback. I still work hard and am well qualified now for what I do but I wasn't always and never realized just how different it is. She went to film school and has been in the industry for her entire career while I was a college dropout who just stumbled into it a few years ago and yet, we are both in our 30's and we are still on the same level, career wise (in fact, if she hasn't moved up the ladder any more, I am now further in my career than she ever was). I have seen her work, she has a good eye. She worked extremely hard on set and wasn't a complainer or gave off bad energy, she was always super positive and willing to shoot anything.

    It's crazy and really something that people should at least be aware of, in terms of why it is a very important issue for a lot of people. This is our livelihoods. To be positive, experienced, driven, qualified and good at what you do and simply not get the work because of your gender is simply wrong.

    Especially in a career where, a lot of us freelance and you can get a great gig, think you made it and a month later not know where your next paycheck is going to come from. Freelancing in film is a difficult choice in profession for even the most experienced shooters, so to be in that position without having the same advantages as everyone else, for no good reason, isn't acceptable. It's one thing to face the issue but just need one good shot to break in and prove yourself but to face that issue when you're having to prove yourself constantly, week in and week out, year after year? It can be discouraging to the point of seriously considering a career change.

    I know that redditors like to diminish the idea that this happens or act like, 'who cares? just hire the best people for the job' but a lot of times, that is exactly what these women are fighting for.

    In an ideal world, gender wouldn't make a difference and we would just look at work experience and resumes but unfortunately we are not there yet and until then, not only is this type of story a good thing, it is an important one as well."

    Eagerly awaiting Suplex's reply of "Yeah but I treat everybody equal so whatever".



  • All western TV shows can be directed by hardcore feminists for all I care, havn't watched a modern show since Stargate Universe was rightfully cancelled and I stopped watching TV entirely because it was only garbage left, and don't plan on it, so I'm not their audience anyway regardless.



  • @Musou-Tensei I'm a big Marvel nerd so their Netflix shows make me diamonds.
    I think they have some of the best fight scenes in recent years across television or movies. Look up the "hallway" and "stairwell" scenes from Daredevil at least.

    Also Luke Cage beating up thugs in a community centre/drug warehouse to Wu-Tang Clan's Bring Da Ruckus made me feel like a giddy little schoolgirl.