Constructive Feedback: Equality, Diversity and Sexualization in Games



  • @El-Shmiablo said in Constructive Feedback: Equality, Diversity and Sexualization in Games:

    I really don't mind sexualization in games, but I dislike it when a game offers nothing BUT sexualization.
    Dogshit like Senran Kagura, Neptunia, Ar Tonelico Qoga, Gal Gun, Mary Skelter, etc, which are nothing more than shallow excuses for basement dwelling weebs to look at some anime tiddies, is what I am not a particularly big fan of.

    With that said, Code of Princess is one of my favorite games on the 3DS.

    are you kidding me dude? Ar Tonelico is one of the best stories in gaming. It has one of the most well developed & unique worlds I've ever seen with its own original languages and songs sung in those languages by some of the most talented artists like Origa and KOKIA. The story is contiguous across multiple games told from multiple viewpoints with multiple branching paths.

    The story is also filled with beautiful ideals like learning to understand and empathize with an opponent instead of simply defeating them. The female characters are well developed with complex sets of motivations, feelings and relationships with other characters.

    Honestly I hope you havent played these games and are just speaking from ignorance because it'd be far more depressing if you played them and all you took away from them was "anime tiddies" and thought there was nothing else.



  • I just hate no matter what people bitch, people complained about gears of war 4 because blah blah stereotype and damsel in distress blah. even though it has a very diverse cast and more mature plotline. i just hate how diversity just turned into a checklist and you got to check them all.



  • @Sieghardt Sorry but all the "deep lore" and "original languages" mean nothing when you are beating up on musclebound transvestites in the tutorial, your combat system revolves around stripping your female party members of their clothes, and one of your party member's cosmospheres involves pooping.

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    But you are totally right. The females are totally complex.

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    Its fine if you like this stuff, but please don't try to pretend that it is more than low grade weeb pandering fetishism.



  • @Bigdude1 said in Constructive Feedback: Equality, Diversity and Sexualization in Games:

    I just hate no matter what people bitch, people complained about gears of war 4 because blah blah stereotype and damsel in distress blah. even though it has a very diverse cast and more mature plotline. i just hate how diversity just turned into a checklist and you got to check them all.

    Well, it is a checklist — the same checklist of every Nickelodeon middle school sitcom. White male protag (check), black friend (check), girl friend (check). It's a set formula synonymous with anything but diversity, unless you're saying Gears subverts that in some way.

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  • And then you have these guys, who think having a diverse cast of characters is some sort of secret agenda by the gaming industry.



  • @El-Shmiablo That conspiracy theory crowd bothers me the most. A Star Wars movie has a female protagonist and all of a sudden, it's a secret SJW agenda to force feminism down people's throats, as opposed to just being a story with a female lead. I honestly don't understand being outraged by something unless it stars the typical white male. Anonymity can truly bring out the worst of people - at times.



  • @SabotageTheTruth PREACH about the anonymity. I HATE that.



  • @El-Shmiablo said in Constructive Feedback: Equality, Diversity and Sexualization in Games:

    @Sieghardt Sorry but all the "deep lore" and "original languages" mean nothing when you are beating up on musclebound transvestites in the tutorial, your combat system revolves around stripping your female party members of their clothes, and one of your party member's cosmospheres involves pooping.

    If you actually played the game you'd know Mute is an important character with again, a great little moral in the story as everyone comes to love her as she is. The game actively preys on any misconceptions people might have about a large muscular woman like that. She isnt a joke character, she's a valuable ally, a hero and a fan favourite.

    I'm glad you brought up the pooping because it shows such a facile understanding of anything in the game. Ever heard the phrase "You think your shit dont stink?" Finnel's story is very heavily about her inferiority complex especially in relation to Akane. She think everything she does is so much worse than the same thing everyone else does.

    If you want to be the guy on the internet who complains about games he hasnt played go right ahead but dont try to put it on people who have played and understand the game.



  • @Sieghardt said in Constructive Feedback: Equality, Diversity and Sexualization in Games:

    @El-Shmiablo said in Constructive Feedback: Equality, Diversity and Sexualization in Games:

    @Sieghardt Sorry but all the "deep lore" and "original languages" mean nothing when you are beating up on musclebound transvestites in the tutorial, your combat system revolves around stripping your female party members of their clothes, and one of your party member's cosmospheres involves pooping.

    If you actually played the game you'd know Mute is an important character with again, a great little moral in the story as everyone comes to love her as she is. The game actively preys on any misconceptions people might have about a large muscular woman like that. She isnt a joke character, she's a valuable ally, a hero and a fan favourite.

    I'm glad you brought up the pooping because it shows such a facile understanding of anything in the game. Ever heard the phrase "You think your shit dont stink?" Finnel's story is very heavily about her inferiority complex especially in relation to Akane. She think everything she does is so much worse than the same thing everyone else does.

    If you want to be the guy on the internet who complains about games he hasnt played go right ahead but dont try to put it on people who have played and understand the game.

    So we have to play the game to understand nuances of its pandering? :grimacing:

    The point @El-Shmiablo is making is that no matter what the narrative content of the game is it is still exploiting its female characters for cheap erotic thrills. That's the problem. It's the same bullshit handwaving that people use with the Dead or Alive games when they say "B...b...but it has good fighting mechanics!" The whole thing is problematic because of the conscious decision made by the developers to use their characters as objects of arousal.



  • @SabotageTheTruth Two British people in a row!? It must be a GLOBAL AGENDA.
    Chemtrails structurally compromise steel beams. It's in the water.



  • I personally don't even think that this needs addressing at all. You should not try and force "diversity" or something, creators should just naturally create whatever game they want.

    Once you start pulling out that checklist consisting of things like "We have to have a black female protag that is lesbian, strong, etc." you severely risk hurting the end product since it's something you feel forced to do for no good reason. This is my main issue with this, that people can't simply be focused on making whatever they want to make.

    (A) Can you name a game that has handled an aspect of equality, diversity, sexualization and sexuality well, and explain how it did that?

    Any game that doesn't even factor these things in. Games that became too focused on this always screwed up because they tried too hard to do the thing you just asked, making it unnatural or forcing whites, males or whatever into a non-equal positions. Equality is about disregarding all this.

    (B) What are ideas that you have, that you would like to see more of in games dealing with equality, diversity, sexualization and sexuality? How would you like a character portrayed? What kinds of setting and world building would you prefer to see?

    As I have said, to disregard it completely. This is not something you can "solve" by doing X, Y and Z. You fix it by simply trying to for example make a realistic feeling game with well written characters that are portrayed realistically. Trying to aim for some perfect equality, racism-free, diverse world that handles sexuality well is dumb.



  • @Sieghardt I have played it, but please, keep telling yourself that I haven't.

    Dude. Just be like Finnel and admit that you are a pervery. Ain't nuthin wrong with it, but stop trying to justify the game's gross fetishism pandering as having "complex female characters".



  • @thenerdtheword Yes they are objects, all videogame characters are objects, they are fictional characters, they are all created, they don't have free will, every single emotion they have is programmed, they don't have rights, every single one of them from Adam Jensen to Zelda are entertainment PRODUCTS, there is nothing pro ble ma tic about it.

    "So we have to play the game to understand nuances of its pandering?"

    Well, yeah, see if I would have never played Senran Kagura I would think similar about it (without the "it's problematic" bs, which pretty much means nothing, it's a non-statement nowadays really), but people who reduce the SK series to that one aspect of it is the same as people who reduce Doom to the violence (like both presidental puppets I mean candidates did at least once), and then censorship happens like in germany and australia, or china, or how just now people in the irish government want some missions removed from Mafia III, and that is actually problematic imo. These people either havn't played the or are so blinded by their "progressive" biases that they can't look past those aspects or realize that certain games are for certain demographics they are simply not part of.
    Now if alternatives wouldn't exist I might understand, but they do, masses of western games that have that diversity bs just for the sake of diversity. But oh no, a single country still makes games that don't obey the new progressive western ideologies, it's comparibly a small percentage of all games but we will complain anyway till they censor that filth.
    See what you don't get is, japan is simply different, the UN tried this shit actually a while ago, they told japan to censor their media even more, and japan said no. You know for being so for equality, they basically asked for that many women in japan lose their jobs, just because they create something western women are offended by, how is that not actually problematic? I'd even call it racist, the feelings of western women are more important than the livelihood of japanese women to those people.
    Another thing that comes over kinda racist is how when westerners see white people when they watch anime, but the japanese actually see japanese people despite the white skin color of most anime characters.



  • Myth of diversity quotas, one.
    Reality, zero.

    Literally rigged.



  • @Musou-Tensei said in Constructive Feedback: Equality, Diversity and Sexualization in Games:

    @thenerdtheword Yes they are objects, all videogame characters are objects, they are fictional characters, they are all created, they don't have free will, every single emotion they have is programmed, they don't have rights, every single one of them from Adam Jensen to Zelda are entertainment PRODUCTS, there is nothing pro ble ma tic about it.

    "So we have to play the game to understand nuances of its pandering?"

    Well, yeah, see if I would have never played Senran Kagura I would think similar about it (without the "it's problematic" bs, which pretty much means nothing, it's a non-statement nowadays really), but people who reduce the SK series to that one aspect of it is the same as people who reduce Doom to the violence (like both presidental puppets I mean candidates did at least once), and then censorship happens like in germany and australia, or china, or how just now people in the irish government want some missions removed from Mafia III, and that is actually problematic imo. These people either havn't played the or are so blinded by their "progressive" biases that they can't look past those aspects or realize that certain games are for certain demographics they are simply not part of.
    Now if alternatives wouldn't exist I might understand, but they do, masses of western games that have that diversity bs just for the sake of diversity. But oh no, a single country still makes games that don't obey the new progressive western ideologies, it's comparibly a small percentage of all games but we will complain anyway till they censor that filth.
    See what you don't get is, japan is simply different, the UN tried this shit actually a while ago, they told japan to censor their media even more, and japan said no. You know for being so for equality, they basically asked for that many women in japan lose their jobs, just because they create something western women are offended by, how is that not actually problematic? I'd even call it racist, the feelings of western women are more important than the livelihood of japanese women to those people.
    Another thing that comes over kinda racist is how when westerners see white people when they watch anime, but the japanese actually see japanese people despite the white skin color of most anime characters.

    That's a whole problematic bag of crazy I don't want to even start unpicking :upside_down:

    Let's just leave it at you personally being ok with objectifying female video game characters and me, personally as in from-my-point-of-view seeing it as problematic content and an approach to making games that I do not agree with. There are less problematic ways to handle sex and titillation in games which do not result in actively demeaning a title's characters. (Same goes for films, TV, anime, manga, comics, books, photos, and basically every form of entertainment) Just be honest with yourself with the reasons why you enjoy said content.

    PROBLEMATIC!!!!



  • I don't see anybody here calling for censorship of these games.
    My initial argument was that, if you are going to make a game, it should work on a mechanical level before you focus on pandering. Stuff like Senran and Qoga chaffs my giblets because, as games, they are lazy, shallow, and undercooked. This only serves to accentuate the pandering when it happens very often.
    Like I said, if you play and enjoy these games, power to ya brother, but don't tell me that they aren't cheaply made fetishbait. Revel in your pervertedness, instead of trying to justify that getting the cute anime girls take their clothes off because GREAT STORY AND DEEP LORE.

    The diversity quota accusation always makes me laugh. Unless you are privy to some secret forum where devs admit they are making games with diverse casts for no other reason than to please some nonexistent SJW boogeyman, that argument is laughable. Who are you to say that this isn't the game or story they wanted to make/tell?

    Using Gears as an example, the cast has always been rather diverse. Women and PoC have been part of the games since the first, but lo and behold you release a game with women and PoC today and SJW SJW STOP RAPING MY CHILDHOOD ANITA.
    I think the only reason it is suddenly more prevalent is because of the MASSIVE tonal shift of Gears 4, where it feels much more like Uncharted than any previous Gears game. Less war drama, more smarmbrow action adventure is the meal of the day.

    It makes tou uncomfortable because it is something you aren't used to seeing. Games, and media in general are still LARGELY designed for a white, male audience. Taking a glance at the biggest games/most anticipated games of this gen will tell you that. If anything, it is the exact opposite in the industry. It is DIFFICULT for games with a focus on women and PoC to be greenlit. The maker of Remember Me was laughed at in business meetings when he pitched his game to investors. HE was the one being told to make it a man instead of a woman. HIS story was the one that was being fought against.

    Tl;dr Wu-Tang is for the children



  • @thenerdtheword said in Constructive Feedback: Equality, Diversity and Sexualization in Games:

    Let's just leave it at you personally being ok with objectifying female video game characters and me, personally as in from-my-point-of-view seeing it as problematic content and an approach to making games that I do not agree with.

    I don't agree with your reasoning. You basically try and say that no media should EVER be allowed to do things like for example "objectifying women". You basically want to censor and limit what people are allowed to create. Once we start going down this route who gets to decide what is right and wrong? What should be allowed or banned? Creative freedom is a thing, you know?

    Seriously, what's stopping people from making this diverse game filled with equality or whatever? Nothing.
    I mean you can't believe that there are some evil overlords stopping people from making games that don't "objectify women" do you?

    Heck this issue stretches deeper than you imagine and a post made by a YT comes to mind as it further explores the issue:
    http://imgur.com/a/UM3sM

    And here is where most people's idea of "equality" shatters What they say they want isn't actually equal treatment.
    In fact it annoys me when women and children get special treatment. Like this female character is downright evil but we can't have our protag murder her like he does with every other male enemy because "that'd be wrong", so she instead is killed off by some falling rubble or some shit instead. What baffles me with this is that I have even gotten into arguments with people that genuinelly think that it IS wrong since that is just empowering males or some shit while in the same breath going on about equality.
    Heck some of these downright psychos even give real feminists a bad name since they're not even feminists, they only label themselves as such to score points.

    So again I think that people should simply be allowed to create whatever media they want and let people buy and support whatever they want.

    If people don't make the kind of games you want then stop trying to demand it from them and make it yourself. Seriously.



  • @suplextrain said in Constructive Feedback: Equality, Diversity and Sexualization in Games:

    @thenerdtheword said in Constructive Feedback: Equality, Diversity and Sexualization in Games:

    Let's just leave it at you personally being ok with objectifying female video game characters and me, personally as in from-my-point-of-view seeing it as problematic content and an approach to making games that I do not agree with.

    I don't agree with your reasoning. You basically try and say that no media should EVER be allowed to do things like for example "objectifying women". You basically want to censor and limit what people are allowed to create. Once we start going down this route who gets to decide what is right and wrong? What should be allowed or banned? Creative freedom is a thing, you know?

    Seriously, what's stopping people from making this diverse game filled with equality or whatever? Nothing.
    I mean you can't believe that there are some evil overlords stopping people from making games that don't "objectify women" do you?

    Heck this issue stretches deeper than you imagine and a post made by a YT comes to mind as it further explores the issue:
    http://imgur.com/a/UM3sM

    And here is where most people's idea of "equality" shatters What they say they want isn't actually equal treatment.
    In fact it annoys me when women and children get special treatment. Like this female character is downright evil but we can't have our protag murder her like he does with every other male enemy because "that'd be wrong", so she instead is killed off by some falling rubble or some shit instead. What baffles me with this is that I have even gotten into arguments with people that genuinelly think that it IS wrong since that is just empowering males or some shit while in the same breath going on about equality.
    Heck some of these downright psychos even give real feminists a bad name since they're not even feminists, they only label themselves as such to score points.

    So again I think that people should simply be allowed to create whatever media they want and let people buy and support whatever they want.

    If people don't make the kind of games you want then stop trying to demand it from them and make it yourself. Seriously.

    That is not what I am saying at all. I'm saying that when it comes to sex and equality in games there are better ways to do it. For example a game like Lady Killer In A Bind treats sexuality, kink and in turn sex with maturity. It also looks like Zoë Quinn's next game is handling "sex and stuff" (technical term!) in a different way by poking fun at it and how we deal with it in games in particular.

    At the end of the day it is a matter of taste. I don't enjoy the handling of female characters in a lot of Japanese visual novel type games but others are ok with it. I'm not saying these games should be altered, changed or banned. Instead I am asking that those that enjoy them to at least acknowledge the more unsavoury elements of these games. This is because it is there and to deny it is a problem.

    Finally I don't feel like I am demanding anything. Change comes from challenging established norms so what wrong with me questioning them?



  • @thenerdtheword said in Constructive Feedback: Equality, Diversity and Sexualization in Games:

    At the end of the day it is a matter of taste. I don't enjoy the handling of female characters in a lot of Japanese visual novel type games but others are ok with it. I'm not saying these games should be altered, changed or banned. Instead I am asking that those that enjoy them to at least acknowledge the more unsavoury elements of these games. This is because it is there and to deny it is a problem.

    But that depends. Material can contain sexual content but the reason you enjoy it might not even be said sexual content. Same deal with portrayals. There can be much more to something.
    Since we're on the subject of japanese material let's talk about Fate/Stay Night. That is a hentai visual novel featuring many strong women with more complex personalities, one of them is even a female version of King Arthur. This novel was so beloved for the characters and story (not the sex and stuff) that it has spawned several animes, novels and games. It's basically mainstream now.

    Also "admitting" to say sexistic material existing in a certain piece of media proves what? It might fit into the world and story that is told. In fact when you try and create a historical story this can even be necessary to create a believable story because that's what the times were like.

    Does japan release stuff aimed at horny teenages? Sure, it makes money. But this is not exactly new or exclusive to japan.
    Now I haven't played some of the games people have been talking about like Senran Kagura but you talking as if the portrayal of the women in games like that should be viewed as a "problem" baffles me.
    What "problem" is this exactly? Does this niche series make the people of the world into sexists or something? Do slasher flicks make people want to put on a mask and murder teenagers?

    I really don't understand where you're going with this.

    Finally I don't feel like I am demanding anything. Change comes from challenging established norms so what wrong with me questioning them?

    I don't feel like this is challenging anything. I mean Disney is forcing diversity into Star Wars, we're at that point now. The thing that actually challenges something are the people against said forced diversity. Being against this forced diversity is generally viewed as something bad. I mean you championing "equality" and "diversity" isn't exactly something I would call challenging established norms. This is 2016, not the middle-ages.



  • @suplextrain I feel you're missing my point so I'll drop it but....Disney aren't forcing diversity into Star Wars. It was already pretty diverse as a setting to begin with what with the aliens, gay robots and whatnot. But whatever I'll just sit here and enjoy the Lucasfilm story team's output and you can imagine a Mickey Mouse Eared Conspiracy.