Constructive Feedback: Equality, Diversity and Sexualization in Games



  • Myth of diversity quotas, one.
    Reality, zero.

    Literally rigged.



  • @Musou-Tensei said in Constructive Feedback: Equality, Diversity and Sexualization in Games:

    @thenerdtheword Yes they are objects, all videogame characters are objects, they are fictional characters, they are all created, they don't have free will, every single emotion they have is programmed, they don't have rights, every single one of them from Adam Jensen to Zelda are entertainment PRODUCTS, there is nothing pro ble ma tic about it.

    "So we have to play the game to understand nuances of its pandering?"

    Well, yeah, see if I would have never played Senran Kagura I would think similar about it (without the "it's problematic" bs, which pretty much means nothing, it's a non-statement nowadays really), but people who reduce the SK series to that one aspect of it is the same as people who reduce Doom to the violence (like both presidental puppets I mean candidates did at least once), and then censorship happens like in germany and australia, or china, or how just now people in the irish government want some missions removed from Mafia III, and that is actually problematic imo. These people either havn't played the or are so blinded by their "progressive" biases that they can't look past those aspects or realize that certain games are for certain demographics they are simply not part of.
    Now if alternatives wouldn't exist I might understand, but they do, masses of western games that have that diversity bs just for the sake of diversity. But oh no, a single country still makes games that don't obey the new progressive western ideologies, it's comparibly a small percentage of all games but we will complain anyway till they censor that filth.
    See what you don't get is, japan is simply different, the UN tried this shit actually a while ago, they told japan to censor their media even more, and japan said no. You know for being so for equality, they basically asked for that many women in japan lose their jobs, just because they create something western women are offended by, how is that not actually problematic? I'd even call it racist, the feelings of western women are more important than the livelihood of japanese women to those people.
    Another thing that comes over kinda racist is how when westerners see white people when they watch anime, but the japanese actually see japanese people despite the white skin color of most anime characters.

    That's a whole problematic bag of crazy I don't want to even start unpicking :upside_down:

    Let's just leave it at you personally being ok with objectifying female video game characters and me, personally as in from-my-point-of-view seeing it as problematic content and an approach to making games that I do not agree with. There are less problematic ways to handle sex and titillation in games which do not result in actively demeaning a title's characters. (Same goes for films, TV, anime, manga, comics, books, photos, and basically every form of entertainment) Just be honest with yourself with the reasons why you enjoy said content.

    PROBLEMATIC!!!!



  • I don't see anybody here calling for censorship of these games.
    My initial argument was that, if you are going to make a game, it should work on a mechanical level before you focus on pandering. Stuff like Senran and Qoga chaffs my giblets because, as games, they are lazy, shallow, and undercooked. This only serves to accentuate the pandering when it happens very often.
    Like I said, if you play and enjoy these games, power to ya brother, but don't tell me that they aren't cheaply made fetishbait. Revel in your pervertedness, instead of trying to justify that getting the cute anime girls take their clothes off because GREAT STORY AND DEEP LORE.

    The diversity quota accusation always makes me laugh. Unless you are privy to some secret forum where devs admit they are making games with diverse casts for no other reason than to please some nonexistent SJW boogeyman, that argument is laughable. Who are you to say that this isn't the game or story they wanted to make/tell?

    Using Gears as an example, the cast has always been rather diverse. Women and PoC have been part of the games since the first, but lo and behold you release a game with women and PoC today and SJW SJW STOP RAPING MY CHILDHOOD ANITA.
    I think the only reason it is suddenly more prevalent is because of the MASSIVE tonal shift of Gears 4, where it feels much more like Uncharted than any previous Gears game. Less war drama, more smarmbrow action adventure is the meal of the day.

    It makes tou uncomfortable because it is something you aren't used to seeing. Games, and media in general are still LARGELY designed for a white, male audience. Taking a glance at the biggest games/most anticipated games of this gen will tell you that. If anything, it is the exact opposite in the industry. It is DIFFICULT for games with a focus on women and PoC to be greenlit. The maker of Remember Me was laughed at in business meetings when he pitched his game to investors. HE was the one being told to make it a man instead of a woman. HIS story was the one that was being fought against.

    Tl;dr Wu-Tang is for the children



  • @thenerdtheword said in Constructive Feedback: Equality, Diversity and Sexualization in Games:

    Let's just leave it at you personally being ok with objectifying female video game characters and me, personally as in from-my-point-of-view seeing it as problematic content and an approach to making games that I do not agree with.

    I don't agree with your reasoning. You basically try and say that no media should EVER be allowed to do things like for example "objectifying women". You basically want to censor and limit what people are allowed to create. Once we start going down this route who gets to decide what is right and wrong? What should be allowed or banned? Creative freedom is a thing, you know?

    Seriously, what's stopping people from making this diverse game filled with equality or whatever? Nothing.
    I mean you can't believe that there are some evil overlords stopping people from making games that don't "objectify women" do you?

    Heck this issue stretches deeper than you imagine and a post made by a YT comes to mind as it further explores the issue:
    http://imgur.com/a/UM3sM

    And here is where most people's idea of "equality" shatters What they say they want isn't actually equal treatment.
    In fact it annoys me when women and children get special treatment. Like this female character is downright evil but we can't have our protag murder her like he does with every other male enemy because "that'd be wrong", so she instead is killed off by some falling rubble or some shit instead. What baffles me with this is that I have even gotten into arguments with people that genuinelly think that it IS wrong since that is just empowering males or some shit while in the same breath going on about equality.
    Heck some of these downright psychos even give real feminists a bad name since they're not even feminists, they only label themselves as such to score points.

    So again I think that people should simply be allowed to create whatever media they want and let people buy and support whatever they want.

    If people don't make the kind of games you want then stop trying to demand it from them and make it yourself. Seriously.



  • @suplextrain said in Constructive Feedback: Equality, Diversity and Sexualization in Games:

    @thenerdtheword said in Constructive Feedback: Equality, Diversity and Sexualization in Games:

    Let's just leave it at you personally being ok with objectifying female video game characters and me, personally as in from-my-point-of-view seeing it as problematic content and an approach to making games that I do not agree with.

    I don't agree with your reasoning. You basically try and say that no media should EVER be allowed to do things like for example "objectifying women". You basically want to censor and limit what people are allowed to create. Once we start going down this route who gets to decide what is right and wrong? What should be allowed or banned? Creative freedom is a thing, you know?

    Seriously, what's stopping people from making this diverse game filled with equality or whatever? Nothing.
    I mean you can't believe that there are some evil overlords stopping people from making games that don't "objectify women" do you?

    Heck this issue stretches deeper than you imagine and a post made by a YT comes to mind as it further explores the issue:
    http://imgur.com/a/UM3sM

    And here is where most people's idea of "equality" shatters What they say they want isn't actually equal treatment.
    In fact it annoys me when women and children get special treatment. Like this female character is downright evil but we can't have our protag murder her like he does with every other male enemy because "that'd be wrong", so she instead is killed off by some falling rubble or some shit instead. What baffles me with this is that I have even gotten into arguments with people that genuinelly think that it IS wrong since that is just empowering males or some shit while in the same breath going on about equality.
    Heck some of these downright psychos even give real feminists a bad name since they're not even feminists, they only label themselves as such to score points.

    So again I think that people should simply be allowed to create whatever media they want and let people buy and support whatever they want.

    If people don't make the kind of games you want then stop trying to demand it from them and make it yourself. Seriously.

    That is not what I am saying at all. I'm saying that when it comes to sex and equality in games there are better ways to do it. For example a game like Lady Killer In A Bind treats sexuality, kink and in turn sex with maturity. It also looks like Zoë Quinn's next game is handling "sex and stuff" (technical term!) in a different way by poking fun at it and how we deal with it in games in particular.

    At the end of the day it is a matter of taste. I don't enjoy the handling of female characters in a lot of Japanese visual novel type games but others are ok with it. I'm not saying these games should be altered, changed or banned. Instead I am asking that those that enjoy them to at least acknowledge the more unsavoury elements of these games. This is because it is there and to deny it is a problem.

    Finally I don't feel like I am demanding anything. Change comes from challenging established norms so what wrong with me questioning them?



  • @thenerdtheword said in Constructive Feedback: Equality, Diversity and Sexualization in Games:

    At the end of the day it is a matter of taste. I don't enjoy the handling of female characters in a lot of Japanese visual novel type games but others are ok with it. I'm not saying these games should be altered, changed or banned. Instead I am asking that those that enjoy them to at least acknowledge the more unsavoury elements of these games. This is because it is there and to deny it is a problem.

    But that depends. Material can contain sexual content but the reason you enjoy it might not even be said sexual content. Same deal with portrayals. There can be much more to something.
    Since we're on the subject of japanese material let's talk about Fate/Stay Night. That is a hentai visual novel featuring many strong women with more complex personalities, one of them is even a female version of King Arthur. This novel was so beloved for the characters and story (not the sex and stuff) that it has spawned several animes, novels and games. It's basically mainstream now.

    Also "admitting" to say sexistic material existing in a certain piece of media proves what? It might fit into the world and story that is told. In fact when you try and create a historical story this can even be necessary to create a believable story because that's what the times were like.

    Does japan release stuff aimed at horny teenages? Sure, it makes money. But this is not exactly new or exclusive to japan.
    Now I haven't played some of the games people have been talking about like Senran Kagura but you talking as if the portrayal of the women in games like that should be viewed as a "problem" baffles me.
    What "problem" is this exactly? Does this niche series make the people of the world into sexists or something? Do slasher flicks make people want to put on a mask and murder teenagers?

    I really don't understand where you're going with this.

    Finally I don't feel like I am demanding anything. Change comes from challenging established norms so what wrong with me questioning them?

    I don't feel like this is challenging anything. I mean Disney is forcing diversity into Star Wars, we're at that point now. The thing that actually challenges something are the people against said forced diversity. Being against this forced diversity is generally viewed as something bad. I mean you championing "equality" and "diversity" isn't exactly something I would call challenging established norms. This is 2016, not the middle-ages.



  • @suplextrain I feel you're missing my point so I'll drop it but....Disney aren't forcing diversity into Star Wars. It was already pretty diverse as a setting to begin with what with the aliens, gay robots and whatnot. But whatever I'll just sit here and enjoy the Lucasfilm story team's output and you can imagine a Mickey Mouse Eared Conspiracy.


  • Banned

    Speaking of diversity, why do DC and Marvel hate gingers / redheads all of a sudden?



  • @Art Because most gingers in the MU are mutants, and Marvel are killing off mutants and mutant related material as a gigantic finger to FOX.

    I'm not even being sarcastic about this.

    Also, to whoever said people are only labelling themselves are feminists to "score points"...
    I neef you to take a step back and honestly think about how stupid you sound.



  • @thenerdtheword said in Constructive Feedback: Equality, Diversity and Sexualization in Games:

    @suplextrain I feel you're missing my point so I'll drop it but....

    If I am missing the point then why not explain it to me? I have already admitted to not really understanding the point you're trying to make.
    I mean if you can't even be bothered to explain your point to me then you can't really care that much about championing the stuff you're talking about, but hey I'm not gonna press.

    Disney aren't forcing diversity into Star Wars. It was already pretty diverse as a setting to begin with what with the aliens, gay robots and whatnot. But whatever I'll just sit here and enjoy the Lucasfilm story team's output and you can imagine a Mickey Mouse Eared Conspiracy.

    I was aware of this even before it, but I advice you to watch the Red Letter Media Force Awakens review (linked timecode) since they cover it pretty well there.
    But that is beside the point. The point is that this forced diversity thing is so mainstream that such a massive movie as Star Wars Ep7 (a franchise now owned by a huge company like Disney) even has it. What you're championing isn't some small underground resistance here, so don't pretend that it is. You're not "challenging established norms".
    Just pointing this out since you seem to be so keen on people accepting and admitting to certain facts.



  • While I love myself some RLM, I think of them more as a comedy channel than any sort of authority on film and portayals of diversity in film. Hell, their Star Wars reviews have been incredibly sexist in tone since their first one, what with the drugging/torture of women in the little side skits.

    Until you can show me concrete evidence that these people are being forced to or themselves forcing diversity into their product, I have to surmise that you are simply uncomfortable with the established norm slowly (very, very slowly) shifting away from what you are used to.

    You have convinced yourself that there is some sort of diversity goblin skulking around, wringing it's hands and whispering into the ears of content creators, casting an illusory spell over them which causes them to transform all their male characters into minorities and wimmenz, while ignoring crazy facts like the overwhelming majority of the star wars cast still being white dudes.



  • @El-Shmiablo said in Constructive Feedback: Equality, Diversity and Sexualization in Games:

    While I love myself some RLM, I think of them more as a comedy channel than any sort of authority on film and portayals of diversity in film. Hell, their Star Wars reviews have been incredibly sexist in tone since their first one, what with the drugging/torture of women in the little side skits.

    Again... the point is that they presented that the diversity not only increased but the people involved with it were well aware of it and pushed for it. This was so I didn't have to go aroudn digging up a bunch of stuff just to present something that is pretty obvious.
    Even IF it was all pure coincidence it still doesn't alter the point I'm making. This diversity thing is very mainstream and present everywhere. If you're championing it then that's fine, but it's not like you're challenging established norms here.

    I have to surmise that you are simply uncomfortable with the established norm slowly (very, very slowly) shifting away from what you are used to.

    I'll be frank, that's a very hasty conclusion to come to based on nothing but assumptions. Pardon my french but I literally couldn't give less of a shit so long as people don't try and push diversity to the point where it has a negative effect on the end product. By that I mean that if they put a higher priority on diversity over the quality of the end product. For example picking a black woman over a caucasian male for a role simply to come off as progressive. Because at that point you're not going for equality at all anymore.

    You have convinced yourself that there is some sort of diversity goblin skulking around, wringing it's hands and whispering into the ears of content creators, casting an illusory spell over them which causes them to transform all their male characters into minorities and wimmenz, while ignoring crazy facts like the overwhelming majority of the star wars cast still being white dudes.

    I say again, that's a very hasty conclusion to come to based on pretty much nothing. I suggest you keep your own boogeymen in check and not be so eager to jump the gun.



  • @suplextrain Did you agree with RLM that the diversity in the film was a good thing? What they are criticizing is the film being a product of corporate thinking (this isn't their only point that shows that), not the diversity. They even call out people as morons who were boycotting the film and complaining about the casting choices based on their race and gender. But yeah, it's odd that you bring up their review to strenghten your point when the review is actually complementing the diversity.

    I also don't understand people who say they don't care about the characters race and gender. But then complain it being forced when it's a female or minority. I've seen people complaining about Mafia 3 and Lincoln Clay being minority being forced "because of the SJWs", while the whole story heavily revolves around racism in the place and time the game is set. So it's very integral to the story they WANT to tell. What if Nathan Drake was a black man, would that hurt the story Naughty Dog wants to tell? Why is adding diversity to media called out as forced. But not the fact that most game protagonists are white men, that if anything seems being forced.

    RLM is great btw!



  • I... don't think you understand what the word equality means.

    The entire media and entertainment industry as a whole is very, very italicized font up in this bitch VERY unequal right now. For every example you can give me of diversity in movies or games, there are 10 against it.

    THIS is why I make my assumptions, because what you are implying simply isn't true. The idea of diversity in mainstream media IS only beginning to catch on. That you have convinced yourself otherwise is not a problem I can help you with, since you are obviously unwilling to accept this reality.



  • @suplextrain

    alt text
    It's like talking to an overly aggressive brick wall at this point but I'll try.

    Pushing for diversity isn't wrong or something to be worried about as long as good stories and characters come from it. By its very nature you will still get stories and characters that appeal directly to you but instead of it being default white male #5 all the time other people will get things that appeal to them instead of or as part of the media we consume.

    You use Star Wars as an example of what you perceive to be the issue and if anything the team at Lucasfilm that oversee the films, books, comic books, tv shows, video games and anything else that relates to the canon story for Star Wars have been telling some beautiful stories of late. Full of rich characters where things such as ethnicity, gender and sexuality are just happy bi-products of good characterisation rather than tokenism to hit the dreaded checkboxes you fear. That's what the RLM video covers and champions in its own way.



  • @Budi said in Constructive Feedback: Equality, Diversity and Sexualization in Games:

    @suplextrain Did you agree with RLM that the diversity in the film was a good thing?

    I have already said my piece on this and I'm already repeating myself enough as it is. My opinion on the thing doesn't even matter.

    I also don't understand people who say they don't care about the characters race and gender. But then complain it being forced when it's a female or minority. I've seen people complaining about Mafia 3 and Lincoln Clay being minority being forced "because of the SJWs", while the whole story heavily revolves around racism in the place and time the game is set. So it's very integral to the story they WANT to tell. What if Nathan Drake was a black man, would that hurt the story Naughty Dog wants to tell? Why is adding diversity to media called out as forced. But not the fact that most game protagonists are white men, that if anything seems being forced.

    Just to be clear, I had no issues at all with Clay and thought they handled subjects like racism well because it was in favor of realism. My favorite performance in the game was Father James by Gordon Greene for numerous reasons.

    @El-Shmiablo said in Constructive Feedback: Equality, Diversity and Sexualization in Games:

    I... don't think you understand what the word equality means.

    Really? Is this really what it's coming to?
    I view equality as treating people as if race, gender, etc. didn't exist. To basically treat everyone equally. If this isn't your idea of equality then I'd very much like to hear it.

    The entire media and entertainment industry as a whole is very, very italicized font up in this bitch VERY unequal right now. For every example you can give me of diversity in movies or games, there are 10 against it.

    ?
    Is it supposed to be a mystery that there are some that are sceptical? Also where are you pulling those numbers from?
    Also to make it more game related it's like DLC. Not all DLC is bad but it tends to send up red flags for some people that have been burned by it. In media some forcefully try and be more progressive to negative effect. That trying to be diverse is more important than making a good end product. There are people that have been burned similarly here.
    Then there's obviously also always people against change, racists and so on. Extremists. But said extremists are on both sides of the fence, don't forget that.

    The idea of diversity in mainstream media IS only beginning to catch on.

    I guess we perceive time differently then.

    That you have convinced yourself otherwise is not a problem I can help you with, since you are obviously unwilling to accept this reality.

    You sound awfully close-minded and judgemental. This is not a problem I can help you with.
    This is how you argue. You make wild assumptions based on almost nothing and convince yourself that your ideas are true.
    But you're right in the sense that arguing further would lead nowhere.

    @thenerdtheword said in Constructive Feedback: Equality, Diversity and Sexualization in Games:

    It's like talking to an overly aggressive brick wall at this point but I'll try.

    Yes let's start with the reactionimages and insults. Let's not keep it civil. Let's call me overly aggressive even though I am the one keeping it civil and while not even getting phased.
    Can we just focus on the discussion please?

    Pushing for diversity isn't wrong or something to be worried about as long as good stories and characters come from it. By its very nature you will still get stories and characters that appeal directly to you but instead of it being default white male #5 all the time other people will get things that appeal to them instead of or as part of the media we consume.

    What you don't seem to understand is that a certain person that might be less fitting for the job could've been chosen over someone else more fitting simply to try and be more progressive, for example.
    What I want is true equality. Where only the actual person and their abilities matter. Otherwise it's not equality. Or are you so naive that you think that this doesn't happen? This is present even outside of media and can even factor into who gets the job or not. I have worked with recruitment and the one I worked with pushed for less competent female applicants simply to make the staff "more diverse", so I know for a fact that this is very real. I don't like people being mistreated or getting special treatment.

    I have absolutely no problem with race, gender or whatever. None. I grew up in a very mixed suburb where the majority of my classmates weren't caucasian and 80% of them were girls. It was generally the same all over the schools I went to there in terms of the diversity of the races. My best friends are from africa, china, iran and spain.
    I greatly respect my now deceased father that also shared my belief of treating everyone equally and fairly.
    So do not even entertain the thought that I'm a racist or sexist.
    One of my least favorite things in life is close-mindedness and how easily some people can get triggered. This is why I like testing my ideas by discussing them to see if they actually hold up and also why I don't like close-minded and judgemental people.

    This ties directly into me not liking the idea that some people are pushing for diversity for diversity's sake.
    YOU made it clear that you judge things you haven't even played and you tell people that they should aknowledge the negative aspects and problems about the things like... yet you seem incapable of admitting to similar things yourself, which is precisely what this whole debacle was originally about before it got derailed.

    Also you have yet you actually answer the questions I asked you, like that problems exactly is it resulting in? The stuff where you talk about how people feel about SK, etc. specifically.
    Don't tell me you're gonna resort to logical fallacies?


  • Banned

    @El-Shmiablo said in Constructive Feedback: Equality, Diversity and Sexualization in Games:

    @Art Because most gingers in the MU are mutants, and Marvel are killing off mutants and mutant related material as a gigantic finger to FOX.

    I'm not even being sarcastic about this.

    Also, to whoever said people are only labelling themselves are feminists to "score points"...
    I neef you to take a step back and honestly think about how stupid you sound.

    Actually, I was referring to Shiera Hall, Jimmy Olsen, Mary Jane and Wally West all being race swapped in tv/movies.

    What do they have against redheads?



  • I'm not denying anything, I like what I like, big bouncy anime tiddies. BUTT, surprisingly enough I don't like pure visual novels regardless how lewd they are.



  • @Budi said in Constructive Feedback: Equality, Diversity and Sexualization in Games:

    What if Nathan Drake was a black man

    Depends, is he only black in his newest game or was he always black? I absolutely loathe race and gender washing, I'm just as much against a black Johnny Storm and I'm agains a white Motoko Kusanagi.
    This is a reason why I can't get into american super hero comics, the constant rebooting every few years, it feels like the new writers have no respect for the source material. It's very different in japan, after all these years, Goku is still Goku, Luffy is still Luffy, Kenshiro is still Kenshiro, they just have much more respect (exceptions exist of course, like the all japanese Attack on Titan movie, when the source I think has like only 1 actually japanese character)



  • @Musou-Tensei If Nathan Drake was black from the first game, would it had hurt the story they wanted to tell. Since I think it wouldn't had impacted the story at all. It would had only added a person of colour to the AAA game protagonists, there would had been no negative impact. But there would be a positive, to give people playing games more representation in big blockbusters too. Since it's been dominated by white male leads for so long.

    I also don't advocate for changing already created characters. But I want new characters in wide spectrum. Life is strange gave me fresh perspective with it's young female view. And as I already mentioned Mafia 3, because of the main character the game tackles issues straight on in it's world, gameplay and story in a way never done before. This how diversifying is beneficial to the medium, it opens up a door to new and fresh stories. I still want my Adam Jensen, Solid Snake and Geralt of Rivia. But give me more of Lincoln Clay, Lee Everet and Max Caulfield too.

    I don't mind titties either tbh. Characters can be sexy, wear revealing outfits and so on. What makes the character for me is the writing, how are they represented in the story. Do they have interesting personality, or are they just tropes. Some people call Witcher 3 a sexist game, but those people have very shallow view of the game then. They only look on the surface, how does the female character look. They don't consider who she is. And that's wrong, people shouldn't judge others by just an appearance in real life either. Hell, I even thought that Quiet was the most interesting character in Phantom Pain. I wish she had more clothes on though, since it was a bit ridicilous. But so is the whole series, so I guess I can give it a pass. I'm not outraged, I just think it's dumb. You can take "sexy" too far. I was disturbed by the interrigation scene though, since it was so sexualized. Maybe that was the intent, to make the player uncomfortable, I don't know.