Constructive Feedback: Equality, Diversity and Sexualization in Games



  • @thenerdtheword said in Constructive Feedback: Equality, Diversity and Sexualization in Games:

    @suplextrain I feel you're missing my point so I'll drop it but....

    If I am missing the point then why not explain it to me? I have already admitted to not really understanding the point you're trying to make.
    I mean if you can't even be bothered to explain your point to me then you can't really care that much about championing the stuff you're talking about, but hey I'm not gonna press.

    Disney aren't forcing diversity into Star Wars. It was already pretty diverse as a setting to begin with what with the aliens, gay robots and whatnot. But whatever I'll just sit here and enjoy the Lucasfilm story team's output and you can imagine a Mickey Mouse Eared Conspiracy.

    I was aware of this even before it, but I advice you to watch the Red Letter Media Force Awakens review (linked timecode) since they cover it pretty well there.
    But that is beside the point. The point is that this forced diversity thing is so mainstream that such a massive movie as Star Wars Ep7 (a franchise now owned by a huge company like Disney) even has it. What you're championing isn't some small underground resistance here, so don't pretend that it is. You're not "challenging established norms".
    Just pointing this out since you seem to be so keen on people accepting and admitting to certain facts.



  • While I love myself some RLM, I think of them more as a comedy channel than any sort of authority on film and portayals of diversity in film. Hell, their Star Wars reviews have been incredibly sexist in tone since their first one, what with the drugging/torture of women in the little side skits.

    Until you can show me concrete evidence that these people are being forced to or themselves forcing diversity into their product, I have to surmise that you are simply uncomfortable with the established norm slowly (very, very slowly) shifting away from what you are used to.

    You have convinced yourself that there is some sort of diversity goblin skulking around, wringing it's hands and whispering into the ears of content creators, casting an illusory spell over them which causes them to transform all their male characters into minorities and wimmenz, while ignoring crazy facts like the overwhelming majority of the star wars cast still being white dudes.



  • @El-Shmiablo said in Constructive Feedback: Equality, Diversity and Sexualization in Games:

    While I love myself some RLM, I think of them more as a comedy channel than any sort of authority on film and portayals of diversity in film. Hell, their Star Wars reviews have been incredibly sexist in tone since their first one, what with the drugging/torture of women in the little side skits.

    Again... the point is that they presented that the diversity not only increased but the people involved with it were well aware of it and pushed for it. This was so I didn't have to go aroudn digging up a bunch of stuff just to present something that is pretty obvious.
    Even IF it was all pure coincidence it still doesn't alter the point I'm making. This diversity thing is very mainstream and present everywhere. If you're championing it then that's fine, but it's not like you're challenging established norms here.

    I have to surmise that you are simply uncomfortable with the established norm slowly (very, very slowly) shifting away from what you are used to.

    I'll be frank, that's a very hasty conclusion to come to based on nothing but assumptions. Pardon my french but I literally couldn't give less of a shit so long as people don't try and push diversity to the point where it has a negative effect on the end product. By that I mean that if they put a higher priority on diversity over the quality of the end product. For example picking a black woman over a caucasian male for a role simply to come off as progressive. Because at that point you're not going for equality at all anymore.

    You have convinced yourself that there is some sort of diversity goblin skulking around, wringing it's hands and whispering into the ears of content creators, casting an illusory spell over them which causes them to transform all their male characters into minorities and wimmenz, while ignoring crazy facts like the overwhelming majority of the star wars cast still being white dudes.

    I say again, that's a very hasty conclusion to come to based on pretty much nothing. I suggest you keep your own boogeymen in check and not be so eager to jump the gun.



  • @suplextrain Did you agree with RLM that the diversity in the film was a good thing? What they are criticizing is the film being a product of corporate thinking (this isn't their only point that shows that), not the diversity. They even call out people as morons who were boycotting the film and complaining about the casting choices based on their race and gender. But yeah, it's odd that you bring up their review to strenghten your point when the review is actually complementing the diversity.

    I also don't understand people who say they don't care about the characters race and gender. But then complain it being forced when it's a female or minority. I've seen people complaining about Mafia 3 and Lincoln Clay being minority being forced "because of the SJWs", while the whole story heavily revolves around racism in the place and time the game is set. So it's very integral to the story they WANT to tell. What if Nathan Drake was a black man, would that hurt the story Naughty Dog wants to tell? Why is adding diversity to media called out as forced. But not the fact that most game protagonists are white men, that if anything seems being forced.

    RLM is great btw!



  • I... don't think you understand what the word equality means.

    The entire media and entertainment industry as a whole is very, very italicized font up in this bitch VERY unequal right now. For every example you can give me of diversity in movies or games, there are 10 against it.

    THIS is why I make my assumptions, because what you are implying simply isn't true. The idea of diversity in mainstream media IS only beginning to catch on. That you have convinced yourself otherwise is not a problem I can help you with, since you are obviously unwilling to accept this reality.



  • @suplextrain

    alt text
    It's like talking to an overly aggressive brick wall at this point but I'll try.

    Pushing for diversity isn't wrong or something to be worried about as long as good stories and characters come from it. By its very nature you will still get stories and characters that appeal directly to you but instead of it being default white male #5 all the time other people will get things that appeal to them instead of or as part of the media we consume.

    You use Star Wars as an example of what you perceive to be the issue and if anything the team at Lucasfilm that oversee the films, books, comic books, tv shows, video games and anything else that relates to the canon story for Star Wars have been telling some beautiful stories of late. Full of rich characters where things such as ethnicity, gender and sexuality are just happy bi-products of good characterisation rather than tokenism to hit the dreaded checkboxes you fear. That's what the RLM video covers and champions in its own way.



  • @Budi said in Constructive Feedback: Equality, Diversity and Sexualization in Games:

    @suplextrain Did you agree with RLM that the diversity in the film was a good thing?

    I have already said my piece on this and I'm already repeating myself enough as it is. My opinion on the thing doesn't even matter.

    I also don't understand people who say they don't care about the characters race and gender. But then complain it being forced when it's a female or minority. I've seen people complaining about Mafia 3 and Lincoln Clay being minority being forced "because of the SJWs", while the whole story heavily revolves around racism in the place and time the game is set. So it's very integral to the story they WANT to tell. What if Nathan Drake was a black man, would that hurt the story Naughty Dog wants to tell? Why is adding diversity to media called out as forced. But not the fact that most game protagonists are white men, that if anything seems being forced.

    Just to be clear, I had no issues at all with Clay and thought they handled subjects like racism well because it was in favor of realism. My favorite performance in the game was Father James by Gordon Greene for numerous reasons.

    @El-Shmiablo said in Constructive Feedback: Equality, Diversity and Sexualization in Games:

    I... don't think you understand what the word equality means.

    Really? Is this really what it's coming to?
    I view equality as treating people as if race, gender, etc. didn't exist. To basically treat everyone equally. If this isn't your idea of equality then I'd very much like to hear it.

    The entire media and entertainment industry as a whole is very, very italicized font up in this bitch VERY unequal right now. For every example you can give me of diversity in movies or games, there are 10 against it.

    ?
    Is it supposed to be a mystery that there are some that are sceptical? Also where are you pulling those numbers from?
    Also to make it more game related it's like DLC. Not all DLC is bad but it tends to send up red flags for some people that have been burned by it. In media some forcefully try and be more progressive to negative effect. That trying to be diverse is more important than making a good end product. There are people that have been burned similarly here.
    Then there's obviously also always people against change, racists and so on. Extremists. But said extremists are on both sides of the fence, don't forget that.

    The idea of diversity in mainstream media IS only beginning to catch on.

    I guess we perceive time differently then.

    That you have convinced yourself otherwise is not a problem I can help you with, since you are obviously unwilling to accept this reality.

    You sound awfully close-minded and judgemental. This is not a problem I can help you with.
    This is how you argue. You make wild assumptions based on almost nothing and convince yourself that your ideas are true.
    But you're right in the sense that arguing further would lead nowhere.

    @thenerdtheword said in Constructive Feedback: Equality, Diversity and Sexualization in Games:

    It's like talking to an overly aggressive brick wall at this point but I'll try.

    Yes let's start with the reactionimages and insults. Let's not keep it civil. Let's call me overly aggressive even though I am the one keeping it civil and while not even getting phased.
    Can we just focus on the discussion please?

    Pushing for diversity isn't wrong or something to be worried about as long as good stories and characters come from it. By its very nature you will still get stories and characters that appeal directly to you but instead of it being default white male #5 all the time other people will get things that appeal to them instead of or as part of the media we consume.

    What you don't seem to understand is that a certain person that might be less fitting for the job could've been chosen over someone else more fitting simply to try and be more progressive, for example.
    What I want is true equality. Where only the actual person and their abilities matter. Otherwise it's not equality. Or are you so naive that you think that this doesn't happen? This is present even outside of media and can even factor into who gets the job or not. I have worked with recruitment and the one I worked with pushed for less competent female applicants simply to make the staff "more diverse", so I know for a fact that this is very real. I don't like people being mistreated or getting special treatment.

    I have absolutely no problem with race, gender or whatever. None. I grew up in a very mixed suburb where the majority of my classmates weren't caucasian and 80% of them were girls. It was generally the same all over the schools I went to there in terms of the diversity of the races. My best friends are from africa, china, iran and spain.
    I greatly respect my now deceased father that also shared my belief of treating everyone equally and fairly.
    So do not even entertain the thought that I'm a racist or sexist.
    One of my least favorite things in life is close-mindedness and how easily some people can get triggered. This is why I like testing my ideas by discussing them to see if they actually hold up and also why I don't like close-minded and judgemental people.

    This ties directly into me not liking the idea that some people are pushing for diversity for diversity's sake.
    YOU made it clear that you judge things you haven't even played and you tell people that they should aknowledge the negative aspects and problems about the things like... yet you seem incapable of admitting to similar things yourself, which is precisely what this whole debacle was originally about before it got derailed.

    Also you have yet you actually answer the questions I asked you, like that problems exactly is it resulting in? The stuff where you talk about how people feel about SK, etc. specifically.
    Don't tell me you're gonna resort to logical fallacies?


  • Banned

    @El-Shmiablo said in Constructive Feedback: Equality, Diversity and Sexualization in Games:

    @Art Because most gingers in the MU are mutants, and Marvel are killing off mutants and mutant related material as a gigantic finger to FOX.

    I'm not even being sarcastic about this.

    Also, to whoever said people are only labelling themselves are feminists to "score points"...
    I neef you to take a step back and honestly think about how stupid you sound.

    Actually, I was referring to Shiera Hall, Jimmy Olsen, Mary Jane and Wally West all being race swapped in tv/movies.

    What do they have against redheads?



  • I'm not denying anything, I like what I like, big bouncy anime tiddies. BUTT, surprisingly enough I don't like pure visual novels regardless how lewd they are.



  • @Budi said in Constructive Feedback: Equality, Diversity and Sexualization in Games:

    What if Nathan Drake was a black man

    Depends, is he only black in his newest game or was he always black? I absolutely loathe race and gender washing, I'm just as much against a black Johnny Storm and I'm agains a white Motoko Kusanagi.
    This is a reason why I can't get into american super hero comics, the constant rebooting every few years, it feels like the new writers have no respect for the source material. It's very different in japan, after all these years, Goku is still Goku, Luffy is still Luffy, Kenshiro is still Kenshiro, they just have much more respect (exceptions exist of course, like the all japanese Attack on Titan movie, when the source I think has like only 1 actually japanese character)



  • @Musou-Tensei If Nathan Drake was black from the first game, would it had hurt the story they wanted to tell. Since I think it wouldn't had impacted the story at all. It would had only added a person of colour to the AAA game protagonists, there would had been no negative impact. But there would be a positive, to give people playing games more representation in big blockbusters too. Since it's been dominated by white male leads for so long.

    I also don't advocate for changing already created characters. But I want new characters in wide spectrum. Life is strange gave me fresh perspective with it's young female view. And as I already mentioned Mafia 3, because of the main character the game tackles issues straight on in it's world, gameplay and story in a way never done before. This how diversifying is beneficial to the medium, it opens up a door to new and fresh stories. I still want my Adam Jensen, Solid Snake and Geralt of Rivia. But give me more of Lincoln Clay, Lee Everet and Max Caulfield too.

    I don't mind titties either tbh. Characters can be sexy, wear revealing outfits and so on. What makes the character for me is the writing, how are they represented in the story. Do they have interesting personality, or are they just tropes. Some people call Witcher 3 a sexist game, but those people have very shallow view of the game then. They only look on the surface, how does the female character look. They don't consider who she is. And that's wrong, people shouldn't judge others by just an appearance in real life either. Hell, I even thought that Quiet was the most interesting character in Phantom Pain. I wish she had more clothes on though, since it was a bit ridicilous. But so is the whole series, so I guess I can give it a pass. I'm not outraged, I just think it's dumb. You can take "sexy" too far. I was disturbed by the interrigation scene though, since it was so sexualized. Maybe that was the intent, to make the player uncomfortable, I don't know.



  • @Budi said in Constructive Feedback: Equality, Diversity and Sexualization in Games:

    @Musou-Tensei If Nathan Drake was black from the first game, would it had hurt the story they wanted to tell.

    I'm not going to say, yes, and I'm not going to say no, we simply will never know, but it would have been a different game for sure.

    I also don't advocate for changing already created characters. But I want new characters in wide spectrum.

    That's alright as long it's made well. But you can't deny that there are company's that basically only make PoC characters to be ableto say "Look, look, PoCs in our game, we are so inclusive, buy our shit or we call you racist".

    And as I already mentioned Mafia 3, because of the main character the game tackles issues straight on in it's world, gameplay and story in a way never done before.

    And still those 3 letter people are not happy with it, they will always find something to whine on Gawker 2.0 or Mary Sue.

    I don't mind titties either tbh. Characters can be sexy, wear revealing outfits and so on. What makes the character for me is the writing, how are they represented in the story.

    Which is the case in Senran Kagura but you can only know that if you played the games, I was suprised myself how much story they put into them.

    Do they have interesting personality, or are they just tropes.

    I find to avoid tropes is to avoid reality, this is not some made up stuff, I've seen it myself in RL, the stereotypical turks and kurds, the stereotypical russians, the stereotypical germans (which I am not), not just one, or 2, plenty of them, using those stereotypes in games is not racist, it's simply mirroring reality, and if those people are offended by it, maybe they should stop being stereotypes. I personally wouldn't want that though, I like tropes.



  • @suplextrain True equality does not exist, at least not in this day and age, and probably not for the rest of human history.
    Oh but imagine how great it would be if we all actually WERE equal and there weren't problems built in to the system that make it markedly more difficult for minorities and women.
    The wage gap is real.
    Systemic oppression of minorities is real.
    I like your dream, I really do, but for now that is all it is, a dream.

    Either way, you still have yet to give me a concrete example of even a single piece of media that has been forcibly altered to be more diverse.



  • @Musou-Tensei No it wouldn't be a different game. Because being white isn't what makes Nathan Drake. The character could had been black, latino etc. and no changes in the script or gameplay mechanics would had been needed. Just a different model for the character.

    Your statement about companies including PoC to call others racist goes to some kind of conspiracy theory area and seems a bit delusional. So I don't think we would be getting anywhere with discussing that.

    I've watched Senran Kagura anime for some episodes, gave me few chuckles. But I couldn't call it a good series, it's just silly fluff. The characters weren't deep or compelling. Can't comment on the games. I've played Hunie Pop to completion though, it wasn't a good game. I played it for the naughty bits and the bad writing/voice acting. And it was gifted to me, so would had been rude to not play it ;)

    I've seen stereotypical people too in RL, many of them happen to be white. Because I see mostly white people in my daily life. But they aren't stereotypical whites, or stereotypical blacks. They are stereotypes of low education, alcoholics, fans of certain music genre, people with anime avatars etc. The thing is, person of any ethnicity can represent all of these.



  • @Musou-Tensei Actually, at least for Marvel, there havent been any reboots since the 80s.
    House of M even kicked off a 14 year saga that only concluded with Avengers v Xmen.
    DC on the other hand has no clue what they are doing. New 52 completely changed the universe and Rebirth changed it all back. Its a huge clusterfuck.



  • @El-Shmiablo said in Constructive Feedback: Equality, Diversity and Sexualization in Games:

    The wage gap is real.

    Lmao, no it's not, it got debunked so many times, it's an earnings gap.

    @Budi said in Constructive Feedback: Equality, Diversity and Sexualization in Games:

    @Musou-Tensei No it wouldn't be a different game. Because being white isn't what makes Nathan Drake. The character could had been black, latino etc. and no changes in the script or gameplay mechanics would had been needed. Just a different model for the character.

    Uh no, you can't demand to have more PoC writers so you can have more "realistic" depictions of minorities and at the same time say that you can change any white character into a black one without any other changes. Isn't that like one of the biggest complains from the 3 letter people when white people write black characters, that they aren't authentic?
    You couldn't even make him russian or italian ore swedish withou any changes in Nathan's characteristics, that would be just seen as bad writing. Stop saying that the only difference between the races is skin color, that is simply false.



  • @Musou-Tensei I haven't said any of those things. You really need to understand that people are inviduals, I want diversity in games for the reason I've stated earlier, to get new perspectives. And I acknowledge there are other positives too, for somebody else the reason can be different. Don't bring in the discussion what others have said, when I haven't said it. I'm not part of any group and I don't preach anyone elses message. I'm in favor with diversity in game developement too sure, but even white men are capable of writing excellent stories that are focused on minorities. Take David Simon for an example, The Wire, Treme, Show me a hero. All great tv-shows, Wire might be the greatest of all time. But can you tell me the characteristics in Nathan Drake that make it impossible for him to be an african american for example or white swedish man? What nationality is he then? Since you clearly think it's very well defined in his character.

    Black man born and raised in Finland (it's where I live), will be very different person than a black man born in Nigeria. They might share the tone of their skin, but they grow up in a different culture, that shapes them. Ofcourse people of different nations have their own beliefs, juridical systems, schooling and traditions. I never said they didn't. But not everyone follows them, Finland is a Christian country. I take no part in that. Sometimes I even break the laws that are set here, because I follow my own morals and judgement. People are inviduals, we are not just stereotypes and we can't be painted with a broad brush. Like you said you aren't either. Why it seems that you think minorities are? Or am I just misunderstanding you?



  • @Budi Wait now you even say yourself that you can't even interchange a black person from one country with a black person from another because they are too different, that is what I meant.



  • @Musou-Tensei We are talking about Nathan Drake here and you didn't tell me the characteristics in Nathan Drake that makes it impossible for him to be an african american or white swedish man. And I said we are inviduals shaped by the society/culture we live in, not by the colour of the skin. The colour of the skin can have effect on how others treat you and that will shape you. And you were talking about race, which is about ancestry and genetics. I was talking about the society these people live in. The man living in Finland can have Nigerian roots, but still hold different values and interests than the person currently born and raised in Nigeria.

    I mentioned Lee Everett earlier, from Telltales Walking Dead. He could had been a white guy too. If they only cut the line about Lee being urban and dialogue choice about calling Larry a racist. How many videogame protagonists there are that absolutely need to be white males to tell the story they are telling? But then we get to Lincoln Clay again, he needed to be minority for the story and the world they were building. Since you as the player are victim of racist attitudes. The whole game was from that angle, in Walking Dead it was only few lines.



  • You are constantly saying that people are individuals but at the same time denying Nathan's individuality by saying that he is absolutely interchangable. Skin color, eye color, hair color, voice, sizes, weight, it's all part of ones' individuality. Everyone would be a different person if they would be born as a different race, gender, hell even if it's just in another part of the same friggin town, it would have a huge impact because your neighborhood influneces that all as well. Even twins who are raised the same will usually not develop the same personalities because of even the slightest differences.
    I will stay with my opinion that Nathan Drake would not work as a black guy without changes in script and backstory and I'm certain that if he would have been created as a black person, hell even if only black people would have written him as white man it would be still different from what we have today.