Constructive Feedback: Equality, Diversity and Sexualization in Games



  • @Musou-Tensei No it wouldn't be a different game. Because being white isn't what makes Nathan Drake. The character could had been black, latino etc. and no changes in the script or gameplay mechanics would had been needed. Just a different model for the character.

    Your statement about companies including PoC to call others racist goes to some kind of conspiracy theory area and seems a bit delusional. So I don't think we would be getting anywhere with discussing that.

    I've watched Senran Kagura anime for some episodes, gave me few chuckles. But I couldn't call it a good series, it's just silly fluff. The characters weren't deep or compelling. Can't comment on the games. I've played Hunie Pop to completion though, it wasn't a good game. I played it for the naughty bits and the bad writing/voice acting. And it was gifted to me, so would had been rude to not play it ;)

    I've seen stereotypical people too in RL, many of them happen to be white. Because I see mostly white people in my daily life. But they aren't stereotypical whites, or stereotypical blacks. They are stereotypes of low education, alcoholics, fans of certain music genre, people with anime avatars etc. The thing is, person of any ethnicity can represent all of these.



  • @Musou-Tensei Actually, at least for Marvel, there havent been any reboots since the 80s.
    House of M even kicked off a 14 year saga that only concluded with Avengers v Xmen.
    DC on the other hand has no clue what they are doing. New 52 completely changed the universe and Rebirth changed it all back. Its a huge clusterfuck.



  • @El-Shmiablo said in Constructive Feedback: Equality, Diversity and Sexualization in Games:

    The wage gap is real.

    Lmao, no it's not, it got debunked so many times, it's an earnings gap.

    @Budi said in Constructive Feedback: Equality, Diversity and Sexualization in Games:

    @Musou-Tensei No it wouldn't be a different game. Because being white isn't what makes Nathan Drake. The character could had been black, latino etc. and no changes in the script or gameplay mechanics would had been needed. Just a different model for the character.

    Uh no, you can't demand to have more PoC writers so you can have more "realistic" depictions of minorities and at the same time say that you can change any white character into a black one without any other changes. Isn't that like one of the biggest complains from the 3 letter people when white people write black characters, that they aren't authentic?
    You couldn't even make him russian or italian ore swedish withou any changes in Nathan's characteristics, that would be just seen as bad writing. Stop saying that the only difference between the races is skin color, that is simply false.



  • @Musou-Tensei I haven't said any of those things. You really need to understand that people are inviduals, I want diversity in games for the reason I've stated earlier, to get new perspectives. And I acknowledge there are other positives too, for somebody else the reason can be different. Don't bring in the discussion what others have said, when I haven't said it. I'm not part of any group and I don't preach anyone elses message. I'm in favor with diversity in game developement too sure, but even white men are capable of writing excellent stories that are focused on minorities. Take David Simon for an example, The Wire, Treme, Show me a hero. All great tv-shows, Wire might be the greatest of all time. But can you tell me the characteristics in Nathan Drake that make it impossible for him to be an african american for example or white swedish man? What nationality is he then? Since you clearly think it's very well defined in his character.

    Black man born and raised in Finland (it's where I live), will be very different person than a black man born in Nigeria. They might share the tone of their skin, but they grow up in a different culture, that shapes them. Ofcourse people of different nations have their own beliefs, juridical systems, schooling and traditions. I never said they didn't. But not everyone follows them, Finland is a Christian country. I take no part in that. Sometimes I even break the laws that are set here, because I follow my own morals and judgement. People are inviduals, we are not just stereotypes and we can't be painted with a broad brush. Like you said you aren't either. Why it seems that you think minorities are? Or am I just misunderstanding you?



  • @Budi Wait now you even say yourself that you can't even interchange a black person from one country with a black person from another because they are too different, that is what I meant.



  • @Musou-Tensei We are talking about Nathan Drake here and you didn't tell me the characteristics in Nathan Drake that makes it impossible for him to be an african american or white swedish man. And I said we are inviduals shaped by the society/culture we live in, not by the colour of the skin. The colour of the skin can have effect on how others treat you and that will shape you. And you were talking about race, which is about ancestry and genetics. I was talking about the society these people live in. The man living in Finland can have Nigerian roots, but still hold different values and interests than the person currently born and raised in Nigeria.

    I mentioned Lee Everett earlier, from Telltales Walking Dead. He could had been a white guy too. If they only cut the line about Lee being urban and dialogue choice about calling Larry a racist. How many videogame protagonists there are that absolutely need to be white males to tell the story they are telling? But then we get to Lincoln Clay again, he needed to be minority for the story and the world they were building. Since you as the player are victim of racist attitudes. The whole game was from that angle, in Walking Dead it was only few lines.



  • You are constantly saying that people are individuals but at the same time denying Nathan's individuality by saying that he is absolutely interchangable. Skin color, eye color, hair color, voice, sizes, weight, it's all part of ones' individuality. Everyone would be a different person if they would be born as a different race, gender, hell even if it's just in another part of the same friggin town, it would have a huge impact because your neighborhood influneces that all as well. Even twins who are raised the same will usually not develop the same personalities because of even the slightest differences.
    I will stay with my opinion that Nathan Drake would not work as a black guy without changes in script and backstory and I'm certain that if he would have been created as a black person, hell even if only black people would have written him as white man it would be still different from what we have today.



  • Nathan Drake isn't people though, he is a video game character and especially created to be everyman type. The natural color of your hair doesn't tell us who you are as an invidual, you can give it a different color to express yourself though. We are talking about who someone is as a character. Changes in Drake's skin color, hair color or eye color wouldn't require any changes in the script or the gameplay. I have green eyes (maybe) all that tells about me is that I have green eyes. Even black swedish male can be adventurous, charming altough snarky, intelligent, married with white female character. These all describe Nathan Drake, right? Why can't swedish black man shape up to have Nathan Drake's persona?



  • Nathan is created with certain characteristics in mind which made him into an virtual individual, you see him and you know who he is, if you're really into the series you might even can predict some of his actions in his 4th game because you know him so well from the prequels. So again, if Nathan would have been thought out as balck person from the get go, the games would simply not be the same because they would have been written differently, the coincidence that everything else would have been played out the same defies all logics. Take Sully for example, I highly doubt they would have given a black Nathan a older white guy as friend, and if the backstory how they met would probably been different, not to forget his brother.
    I'm not talking about a person's own personality in that person's eyes, but how it's conceived by others, if you know someone and that person suddenly changes something, you and others will recognize it, maybe compliment, maybe criticise the change, but if that person would have been born that way already, this situation would simply not happen, and that person's life would not been the same. A simple haircut change can change such sitution from positive to negative and vice versa.



  • @El-Shmiablo said in Constructive Feedback: Equality, Diversity and Sexualization in Games:

    @suplextrain True equality does not exist, at least not in this day and age, and probably not for the rest of human history.

    So? That is the goal I'm striving towards and that is how I treat people because I think it's right.
    Do you also think that we shouldn't try and stop violence and murder because it will probably always exist?

    Oh but imagine how great it would be if we all actually WERE equal and there weren't problems built in to the system that make it markedly more difficult for minorities and women.

    What problems?

    The wage gap is real.

    Oh god. I really don't want to get into this topic here because so many people are so massively ignorant about the reality of it to the point where they become delusional.

    Systemic oppression of minorities is real.

    Yeah? So what? You think putting more minorities in the media will somehow remove prejudice and oppression the world over?
    How about trying to get to the root of the problem instead? Do you really think the best way to solve this issue is by making more black, mexican, etc. protags in games or something?

    I like your dream, I really do, but for now that is all it is, a dream.

    This is the part you don't understand. It's not a dream, but a reality. It's how I choose to live my life, my belief. I believe in treating everyone fairly and equally. I don't care at all what your race, gender or whatever is.
    Everything I do ties directly into this belief.

    I understand that the world isn't "equal" and it most likely never will be, but so what? Should I stop treating people equally or something because of this? That'd be stupid.

    I am open to diversity, just not forced diversity. This is because once you start to force something it stops being about equality and turn into special treatment. It's no longer about giving everyone an equal shot anymore.
    Another thing I don't like about forced diversity is that it feels less sincere since it tends to give the impression that the people behind it only do it to seem progressive, not that they actually care. Kind of like those people that donate a buck a month to charity to feel good about themselves

    I didn't have a problem at all with Mafia 3 (a game some people seemed annoyed with) because I played it and felt it wasn't forced. It still felt like a Mafia game in terms of tone and how it flowed. Everything it did was in favor of realism, not in pushing some diversity agenda.
    Heck italians weren't even really viewed as white way back then, a fact which many people seem completely oblivious to.

    Either way, you still have yet to give me a concrete example of even a single piece of media that has been forcibly altered to be more diverse.

    I don't even see how this is relevant so I don't see why I should go through any effort to do so. Convince me why I should and I might.

    In any case I think you're getting side-tracked and you're only here to argue. Because I really don't see what your point is and what you think should be done in the game industry to solve these "problems" the world has that you talk about. So feel free to elaborate on this because it would steer the discussion back on track.



  • This thread:
    alt text

    @suplextrain said in Constructive Feedback: Equality, Diversity and Sexualization in Games:

    What problems?

    The wage gap is real.

    Oh god. I really don't want to get into this topic here because so many people are so massively ignorant about the reality of it to the point where they become delusional.

    Systemic oppression of minorities is real.

    Yeah? So what? You think putting more minorities in the media will somehow remove prejudice and oppression the world over?
    How about trying to get to the root of the problem instead? Do you really think the best way to solve this issue is by making more black, mexican, etc. protags in games or something?

    The ignorance in these statements is maddening. I don't know how it is in the US but in the UK the wage gap is indeed real. (As are a whole other boatload of inequalities) Also your disregard for minorities and lack of understanding of how media effects wider culture speaks volumes.

    I'm done with this bullshit. It will just keep going round in circles until the last man standing can declare themself the "winner"
    So to summarise:

    • Lack of diversity in media is a problem
    • Forced diversity is not a problem
    • Stuff is changing for the better albeit slowly
    • If you don't like it deal with it
    • Titties need to be handled tastefully


  • @thenerdtheword said in Constructive Feedback: Equality, Diversity and Sexualization in Games:

    • Stuff is changing for the better albeit slowly
      - If you don't like it deal with it
    • Titties need to be handled tastefully

    The issue with that attitude is it's a two way street. Arguing otherwise is rather hypocritical.

    Fan service neither needs to go away or be tasteful, it's marketed precisely at those who consume that media, it's not meant for you. Hell, In most cases be it anime or video games it's not even made with other countries or cultures in mind! So of course it's not meant to cater to everyone just by the nature of who it was originally made for, when it gets released elsewhere especially when it comes to games like say...Senran Kagura, it's released here based on DEMAND from people, the people who WANT it, they're simply giving people what they ask for.

    Is it better when it's handled tastefully? Sure, but it's still fan service. Whether it's tasteful is not only semantics but also rather subjective.

    In the end, your own logic states "If you don't like it deal with it"



  • @ZyloWolfBane said in Constructive Feedback: Equality, Diversity and Sexualization in Games:

    @thenerdtheword said in Constructive Feedback: Equality, Diversity and Sexualization in Games:

    • Stuff is changing for the better albeit slowly
      - If you don't like it deal with it
    • Titties need to be handled tastefully

    The issue with that attitude is it's a two way street. Arguing otherwise is rather hypocritical.

    Fan service neither needs to go away or be tasteful, it's marketed precisely at those who consume that media, it's not meant for you. Hell, In most cases be it anime or video games it's not even made with other countries or cultures in mind! So of course it's not meant to cater to everyone just by the nature of who it was originally made for, when it gets released elsewhere especially when it comes to games like say...Senran Kagura, it's released here based on DEMAND from people, the people who WANT it, they're simply giving people what they ask for.

    Is it better when it's handled tastefully? Sure, but it's still fan service. Whether it's tasteful is not only semantics but also rather subjective.

    In the end, your own logic states "If you don't like it deal with it"

    alt text



  • @thenerdtheword said in Constructive Feedback: Equality, Diversity and Sexualization in Games:

    @ZyloWolfBane said in Constructive Feedback: Equality, Diversity and Sexualization in Games:

    @thenerdtheword said in Constructive Feedback: Equality, Diversity and Sexualization in Games:

    • Stuff is changing for the better albeit slowly
      - If you don't like it deal with it
    • Titties need to be handled tastefully

    The issue with that attitude is it's a two way street. Arguing otherwise is rather hypocritical.

    Fan service neither needs to go away or be tasteful, it's marketed precisely at those who consume that media, it's not meant for you. Hell, In most cases be it anime or video games it's not even made with other countries or cultures in mind! So of course it's not meant to cater to everyone just by the nature of who it was originally made for, when it gets released elsewhere especially when it comes to games like say...Senran Kagura, it's released here based on DEMAND from people, the people who WANT it, they're simply giving people what they ask for.

    Is it better when it's handled tastefully? Sure, but it's still fan service. Whether it's tasteful is not only semantics but also rather subjective.

    In the end, your own logic states "If you don't like it deal with it"

    alt text

    lol.

    You may not like to hear it, but it's true. There's simply no form of "Tasteful" with some of these games or anime, they just wouldn't exist. Period.

    If I'm expected to deal with things I don't like, you're subject under that same expectation. Not everything is made for us. I feel cringey playing something like Senran Kagura, it's a cheap laugh and then I just feel weird about it so I stop playing.

    But I wouldn't argue it should be changed, it's selfish plain and simple.



  • @ZyloWolfBane but the thing is all I am saying is that I think there are better ways of handling it. I've seen and played games that do it. I don't play games like Senran Kagura because they do not appeal to me due to their approach to sexualising their female characters. If people want to play them I'm not stopping them. I just think that a lot of people bury their head in the sand when it comes to looking at the obvious flaws with such products. I see faults, they don't hence the circular nature of this whole argument. So yeah having to deal with it does work both ways.

    As for the arguments of "you can't judge something unless you've played, watched, read it" that have been raised by others those can piss off. I can look at, read up on and evaluate the worth of a product before giving the creator my money. That's how subjectivity works folks.

    At this point I'm going to apologise for contributing to derailment of @CGamor7 's well intentioned thread.



  • @thenerdtheword said in Constructive Feedback: Equality, Diversity and Sexualization in Games:

    The ignorance in these statements is maddening. I don't know how it is in the US but in the UK the wage gap is indeed real. (As are a whole other boatload of inequalities) Also your disregard for minorities and lack of understanding of how media effects wider culture speaks volumes.

    Funny how you talk about ignorance and just naturally assume I live in the US.
    I also said that I don't want to get into the while wage gap discussion here because so many people are preceisly that, ignorant about it. They don't have a deeper understanding on the subject at all. There have been huge studies done on this subject which I doubt you have even dipped your toe into. It's a far more complex matter than most people think and the reality isn't so black and white.
    But as I said, I won't get into it here.

    I'm done with this bullshit. It will just keep going round in circles until the last man standing can declare themself the "winner"
    So to summarise:

    I see you have not only completely missed the points I tried to make, you also failed to properly present the points you tried to make (even though you have been asked to clarify repeatedly) and avoid any questions directed at you. Instead you resort to reactionimages, calling me ignorant and whatnot. Basically you resort to logical fallacies.

    If you want to make people understand you and the problems you talk about then maybe try to actually make an effort into doing just that.
    So far I have absolutely no idea what the point you wanted to get across was, what these "problems" are and more. So all you have done is waste my time and yours by creating this circular argument by not making any attempts to actually elaborate on what you mean and answer simple questions of clarification, to help people understand you.

    No offense, but you seem very close-minded. Try to challenge your ideas more and test them. That way you know if they hold up or not. Or at the very least try and create a civil back and forth conversation. Because this just turned into a derailing shitshow, which is a shame.

    To make it clear, I don't see how games like Senran Kagura is creating these unexplained "problems" in the world, nor do I see your reasoning for wanting people to admit or whatever that the media they consume contains fanservice or sex (I really don't see how this is relevant at all). I already made arguments that proved that looks can be deceiving (Fate/Stay Night and there exists many more) which have yet to be countered by by you.
    So if you ever feel like elaborating further on this feel free to do so, otherwise I don't see any reason to continue.



  • @thenerdtheword said in Constructive Feedback: Equality, Diversity and Sexualization in Games:

    I just think that a lot of people bury their head in the sand when it comes to looking at the obvious flaws with such products.

    If they're so obvious why are they so difficult to list when people even ask you to? Also you just naturally assume that people "bury their heads in the sand" for some reason, what do you base this on?

    I see faults, they don't hence the circular nature of this whole argument.

    Did it ever occur to you that it might be a good idea to clue people in on these "faults" if they don't see it? Or do you prefer the approach of throwing your hands up in to the air and scream "You just don't get it! This is going nowhere!" ? To me that seems to be the main reason behind this circular argument.

    As for the arguments of "you can't judge something unless you've played, watched, read it" that have been raised by others those can piss off. I can look at, read up on and evaluate the worth of a product before giving the creator my money. That's how subjectivity works folks.

    So how much research do you do on each piece of media before you find that you can make accurate calls on the value of a product? If I posted a picture from a Rance game or something like Muv-Luv you would undoubtedly throw it in the bin of sexistic trash and the sole reason people play/read those games is for the nudity in it. I personally haven't played those games but I have friends that do and they spend most of their time discussing the story, characters or gameplay than the porn. Doesn't that strike you as odd if the main appeal (according to you? I don't know since you don't like to clarify) is the sexistic parts of the media?

    Basically, what is your point and please explain it. That's literally all you have to do. It's that simple.



  • @suplextrain said in Constructive Feedback: Equality, Diversity and Sexualization in Games:

    @thenerdtheword said in Constructive Feedback: Equality, Diversity and Sexualization in Games:

    I just think that a lot of people bury their head in the sand when it comes to looking at the obvious flaws with such products.

    If they're so obvious why are they so difficult to list when people even ask you to? Also you just naturally assume that people "bury their heads in the sand" for some reason, what do you base this on?

    I see faults, they don't hence the circular nature of this whole argument.

    Did it ever occur to you that it might be a good idea to clue people in on these "faults" if they don't see it? Or do you prefer the approach of throwing your hands up in to the air and scream "You just don't get it! This is going nowhere!" ? To me that seems to be the main reason behind this circular argument.

    As for the arguments of "you can't judge something unless you've played, watched, read it" that have been raised by others those can piss off. I can look at, read up on and evaluate the worth of a product before giving the creator my money. That's how subjectivity works folks.

    So how much research do you do on each piece of media before you find that you can make accurate calls on the value of a product? If I posted a picture from a Rance game or something like Muv-Luv you would undoubtedly throw it in the bin of sexistic trash and the sole reason people play/read those games is for the nudity in it. I personally haven't played those games but I have friends that do and they spend most of their time discussing the story, characters or gameplay than the porn. Doesn't that strike you as odd if the main appeal (according to you? I don't know since you don't like to clarify) is the sexistic parts of the media?

    Basically, what is your point and please explain it. That's literally all you have to do. It's that simple.

    Well thanks, now I'm interested in this rance title. I totally haven't seen the source material whatsoever.



  • @thenerdtheword said in Constructive Feedback: Equality, Diversity and Sexualization in Games:

    @ZyloWolfBane but the thing is all I am saying is that I think there are better ways of handling it. I've seen and played games that do it.

    Well that means they exist, so you don't need to bother with games that aren't "tasteful" (which is 100% subjective btw, like I and many others find a naked woman, not even ugly, climbing on some contraption and squirting what I hope was red color on a white plane below her and calling it feminist art, in a public place outside, with nothing like an age rating preventing passing by children to see that shit, pretty distasteful, other's think it's art, some even might even get a good wank out of it)

    I don't play games like Senran Kagura because they do not appeal to me due to their approach to sexualising their female characters. If people want to play them I'm not stopping them.

    You kinda try to though, you are constantly trying to convince people that the things they like are bad and they should feel bad by using the overused and meaningless "progressive" term Problematic.

    I just think that a lot of people bury their head in the sand when it comes to looking at the obvious flaws with such products.

    Yeah, they can be a bit buggy (far away from Bethesda levels of buggy though) and the translations can have typos, those games are often low budget games translated by freelancers and published by small publishers.

    I see faults, they don't hence the circular nature of this whole argument. So yeah having to deal with it does work both ways.

    No, you see things you personally don't like or don't conform to your believe system.

    As for the arguments of "you can't judge something unless you've played, watched, read it" that have been raised by others those can piss off. I can look at, read up on and evaluate the worth of a product before giving the creator my money. That's how subjectivity works folks.

    Technically I agree, I don't need to play a game anymore to know if i would enjoy it or not, and that's fine, if you don't like what you see, don't buy it. The problem is that people are outright denying any other qualities, like you, you havn't played SK games and I assume havn't watched a Walkthrough/LP either, you can't speak on the story, the characters, the humor nor the feeling of the gameplay, only what you've seen. I hate CoD with all my heart but I can still recognize that the set pieces are fantastic, and they make great trailers using those, I just don't enjoy playing CoD myself at all.



  • So in conclusion:
    There are systemic problems with racism and sexism built into society that will take massive amounts of work to overcome
    YEAH BUT I TREAT EVERYBODY EQUALLY SO WHATEVER. ALSO MY BOOBY GAMES ARE ART

    This was a nice thread.