Constructive Feedback: Equality, Diversity and Sexualization in Games



  • So in conclusion:
    There are systemic problems with racism and sexism built into society that will take massive amounts of work to overcome
    YEAH BUT I TREAT EVERYBODY EQUALLY SO WHATEVER. ALSO MY BOOBY GAMES ARE ART

    This was a nice thread.



  • @El-Shmiablo said in Constructive Feedback: Equality, Diversity and Sexualization in Games:

    So in conclusion:
    There are systemic problems with racism and sexism built into society that will take massive amounts of work to overcome
    YEAH BUT I TREAT EVERYBODY EQUALLY SO WHATEVER. ALSO MY BOOBY GAMES ARE ART

    This was a nice thread.

    And we all learnt never to big up the subject of sex in visual novel games ever again :laughing:

    Also that people make a whole lot of assumptions about what others know and feel.

    Also, Also, boobies.



  • For those who are interested this is a good read about BioWare's approach to inclusivity and the reasons why they push for diversity in their casts of characters: http://www.gamesindustry.biz/articles/2016-10-20-making-your-games-inclusive-is-complicated-and-fraught-with-frustration?utm_source=newsletter&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=european-daily



  • @ZyloWolfBane said in Constructive Feedback: Equality, Diversity and Sexualization in Games:

    Well thanks, now I'm interested in this rance title. I totally haven't seen the source material whatsoever.

    I personally haven't played it but to my understanding (from what my friends have told me) it's a comedic visual novel and strategy game with sex in it. Apparantely very popular in japan.

    @El-Shmiablo said in Constructive Feedback: Equality, Diversity and Sexualization in Games:

    So in conclusion:
    There are systemic problems with racism and sexism built into society that will take massive amounts of work to overcome
    YEAH BUT I TREAT EVERYBODY EQUALLY SO WHATEVER. ALSO MY BOOBY GAMES ARE ART

    This was a nice thread.

    So you can't even reply to me directly, you can't add anything of value to the discussion or the thread and you dumb down, belittle and twist what was said with logical fallacies to somehow try and "win"?
    At the same time you imply others ruined the thread while you're obviously one of the contributors with a post like this?
    Yes thanks for your insight.

    But here is a more insightful reply (which you seem incapable of creating, no offense):
    Racism and sexism exist yes.
    Does forcing more diversity and stuff into everything possible somehow solve this? Absolutely not. If you disagree then I'd really like to hear you reasoning behind this. Why would having more blacks or whatever as protags in games reduce racism and sexism? If you wanted to fight these issues doing it in this roundabout and convoluted way makes no sense, you should go at the root of the problem instead. Do you agree with this? If not, why?
    I'm seriously all ears yet you people don't seem to be very fond of elaborating, only projecting your ideas onto others and then getting upset when people don't just nod their head in agreement.

    Also yes I do treat people equally. Is this bad? I made it clear that I'm not a sexist or racist and I prefer true equality, so I don't support special treatment or mistreatment. This is why I will raise my voice against forced diversity (to clarify, I am not saying that forced diversity is rampant, if that wasn't clear). I have a set of principles I follow, what's so difficult to understand about this?

    As for the last passive aggressive comment that boobs are art is something so completely fabricated and silly I don't even see a reason to give it a serious response.

    Long story short, how about actually discussing these subjects like normal sensible adults? Sharing your opinions, ideas and reasoning. That way you not only make others understand your views better, you also test if your ideas hold up. If you don't test your ideas you risk of just living in an echo chamber and that is frankly not healthy. That kind of thinking is precisely the thing that spawns stuff like racism and sexism.

    @thenerdtheword said in Constructive Feedback: Equality, Diversity and Sexualization in Games:

    And we all learnt never to big up the subject of sex in visual novel games ever again :laughing:

    Serious question, is this you flauting how close minded you are or do you genuinelly not understand the point that was being made? I thought I was being pretty clear but if you want me to further explain it to you then just ask.
    You might be against elaboration but I'm not.

    Also that people make a whole lot of assumptions about what others know and feel.

    Like you and El Shmiablo, you mean?

    Also it would be much much easier to understand you if you cut down on the short passive aggressive replies and actually discussed this properly like sensible adults. Can you tell me why it's so difficult for you to just explain what you mean or answer simple questions?
    You even openly admit to getting frustrated when people don't understand what you mean yet you make no effort to explain yourself or your ideas. Even when people directly ask you to clarify and elaborate.

    Since you keep avoiding to elaborate on this I can only make the assumption that you really don't have an answer you believe in, yet you don't want to admit that your wrong or your ideas have holes in them. I mean what else am I supposed to think when you again and again dodge any elaboration directed at you and resort to passive aggressive replies, reactionimages and so on?

    To make it clear I am not trying to win a discussion here, I am trying to make you explain yourself so I can understand you. To simply discuss this subject. I ahve absolutely no problem with being proven wrong or whatever. That's why I like pursuing and discussing stuff since that's how you test your ideas and beliefs and prevent yourself from living in an echo chamber.

    But if you really don't want to elaborate then just say so and we'll end it there.



  • @thenerdtheword said in Constructive Feedback: Equality, Diversity and Sexualization in Games:

    For those who are interested this is a good read about BioWare's approach to inclusivity and the reasons why they push for diversity in their casts of characters: http://www.gamesindustry.biz/articles/2016-10-20-making-your-games-inclusive-is-complicated-and-fraught-with-frustration?utm_source=newsletter&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=european-daily

    I personally believe Bioware are trying a little too hard and many of their attempts are not very flattering or progressive at all. Take the Iron Bull gay romance, it's basically treated as a joke. Romances are basically only about getting to the sex since they end there. The way they handle themes like racism is clumsy and awkward.

    Now a recent game I think did a great job of naturally handling racism was Mafia 3. Racism in that game was explored but it didn't shove it in your face. It was in favor of realism, which is how it should be done. Tastefully.
    As for sexism I think there are many examples of games that treat their men and women equally. Even 40k games does this which seldom gets brought up (instead games like the Tomb Raider reboot are brought up for some reason).

    But if you're more into the RPG genre then I suggest you check out the work of Chris Avellone and Obsidian instead, not Bioware. Do note I am not hating on Bioware here, I am simply saying that I believe the work of Chris and Obsidian to be far superior in terms of writing and how they handle these subjects you're talking about without being so heavyhanded.



  • @El-Shmiablo You are so amusing. Not for your personal opinion on games addressed, but your belief that games in question have not merit outside your personal issues.

    While Qoga is not the best in showcasing its quality as a series, the others do. Does it have a pandering aspect to it? of course it does, trouble is that you dismiss everything else because of it.

    The issue you have is that you label everything with a lower budget as something deserves a lower interest. Sad for me to say though that the likes of Neptunia (at least the recent iteration's) have quite the in=depth battle and character upgrade system that it actually puts it beyond some of the more mature yet simply RPG's that get praised to high heaven.



  • I was playing Mars War Logs, a 2013 indie game. It's a RPG by Spiders (Bound by Flame and Technomancer -which actually its is sequel-), inspired by the CDPR's game design. It's very clunky and low budget.

    However, brings me to this thread the character writting. The game is mostly male focused, being most characters in it male. Albeit the writting of the game is not good, to begin with, there are some ugly writting decisions.

    The first chapter is in a prisson with no female characters except for Mary, the female technomancer apprentice of the Technomancer overseer of the facility. She basically doesn't have a role in this chapter. Being a prison I accept the artistic license of having only male characters.

    The second chapter is in a city, actually the slumps of a civil enclave. The city has wandering female NPCs but brought my attention that no women were represented as drogadics or vagabonds, I see no reason for that.

    Then, you interact with four female characters, one is a physician who teaches you that violence to addicts is not a solution to drogadiction. The other two characters are prostitutes, one of whch is physically abused by her pimp while the other is some kind of pimp, she is a strong character but in a prostitution seeting. I will say it's okish. The fourth one is the ugly one.

    The fourth character is Mary, the Tehcnomancer apprentice which ends up in your party after you rescue her from an explosion. She has no personality and acts like a doll. In your first conversation with her, despite being unconfortable with your character, she asks you to have sex. When asked why, she replies because that is what her master did to her. Then, there are conversation options to deep into her attitude and every line sound like some patronizing bullshit. It's really a cringefest.
    She wears a torn dress that makes it look like a tiny dress, when asked why she doesn't change her clothers, she replies, the way it looks represents her torn inside. Major bullshit.
    I think the trope is the slave girl but it is just abysmal writting, and it is a shame for the writers.

    I'm enjoying the game, and I'm fine with the lacking writting, but this new low reached with Mary is really pulling the strings. I really hope it gets better and, for the love of God, I hope The Tehcnomancer has far far better writting in this regard.



  • This thread seems deplorable at this point.



  • @Haru17 said in Constructive Feedback: Equality, Diversity and Sexualization in Games:

    This thread seems deplorable at this point.

    Pretty much, I had quite the response for someone on here. But I know where things would've went afterwards. Rather than leaving it to hindsight....said nah.



  • @Haru17 said in Constructive Feedback: Equality, Diversity and Sexualization in Games:

    This thread seems deplorable at this point.

    You can always turn a thread around, sadly I'm not the person for it since I've not only said my piece on OP's subject but I don't feel like that there is much more to say on it.

    All you have to do is continue the original topic as if nothing happened. I personally don't plan on continuing the side-tracked discussion any further and I'm generally the person that ends up butting heads with others since I might be a tad too eager to test my ideas, so I wouldn't worry haha.

    If you think the topic is interesting and want to discuss it then nothing's stopping you.



  • @suplextrain said in Constructive Feedback: Equality, Diversity and Sexualization in Games:

    Serious question, is this you flauting how close minded you are or do you genuinelly not understand the point that was being made?

    In the interest of trying keep things civil I'll ignore this :grimacing:

    @suplextrain said in Constructive Feedback: Equality, Diversity and Sexualization in Games:

    @thenerdtheword said in Constructive Feedback: Equality, Diversity and Sexualization in Games:

    For those who are interested this is a good read about BioWare's approach to inclusivity and the reasons why they push for diversity in their casts of characters: http://www.gamesindustry.biz/articles/2016-10-20-making-your-games-inclusive-is-complicated-and-fraught-with-frustration?utm_source=newsletter&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=european-daily

    I personally believe Bioware are trying a little too hard and many of their attempts are not very flattering or progressive at all. Take the Iron Bull gay romance, it's basically treated as a joke. Romances are basically only about getting to the sex since they end there. The way they handle themes like racism is clumsy and awkward.

    Now a recent game I think did a great job of naturally handling racism was Mafia 3. Racism in that game was explored but it didn't shove it in your face. It was in favor of realism, which is how it should be done. Tastefully.
    As for sexism I think there are many examples of games that treat their men and women equally. Even 40k games does this which seldom gets brought up (instead games like the Tomb Raider reboot are brought up for some reason).

    But if you're more into the RPG genre then I suggest you check out the work of Chris Avellone and Obsidian instead, not Bioware. Do note I am not hating on Bioware here, I am simply saying that I believe the work of Chris and Obsidian to be far superior in terms of writing and how they handle these subjects you're talking about without being so heavyhanded.

    With BioWare it is interesting how their approach to inclusivity started off as a slow trickle but now they have become sort of known for it they are almost reaching the point were a lot of tastes are covered in there releases. It has become expected to a point but their writing teams are geared around approaching story and character from as many points of view as they can get. Without there being an explicit mandate of "We need X number of non-hetero characters/romances in this game." As for the Iron Bull one man's joke is another's bear fantasy.

    I've seen a lot of non-gamers enjoy BioWare games because their sexuality is represented and for the most part the games do a good job of only giving you that content if you explicitly go after it. You'll get a nod to point you in that direction but it is up to the player to decide if they want to see it play out in that way.

    I've not really played many Obsidian titles outside of KOTOR II and an attempted playthrough of Alpha Protocol. I just find on the whole their writing to be very wooden.


  • Banned

    You're all just a bunch of sexist white heterosexual males.



  • @thenerdtheword said in Constructive Feedback: Equality, Diversity and Sexualization in Games:

    In the interest of trying keep things civil I'll ignore this :grimacing:

    You say as you reply with a passive aggressive comment? Maybe don't make a comment like that at all next time, since you don't drive the discussion forward and you're not even being civil about it in the first place. You're only trying to win points, not treating it as a civil discussion.

    With BioWare it is interesting how their approach to inclusivity started off as a slow trickle but now they have become sort of known for it they are almost reaching the point were a lot of tastes are covered in there releases. It has become expected to a point but their writing teams are geared around approaching story and character from as many points of view as they can get. Without there being an explicit mandate of "We need X number of non-hetero characters/romances in this game." As for the Iron Bull one man's joke is another's bear fantasy.

    The problem is how they handle it. It comes off as very heavy handed and forced at times. They also actually don't really explore relationships but just have you racking up points by saying nice things to the characters until you can have sex with them and then the progression ends. With certain characters it's not even handled seriously/romantically like in a real relationship, sometimes they even make it into a joke.
    It's as if the writers aren't competent or they're uncomfortable with writing that kind of material, because it feels awkward.

    The way they handled relationships in Baldurs Gate 2 was infinitely better and more mature. It added depth to the characters with no clear endgoal (like sex, since when that happened the relationship continued) and not simply treating it like some sex minigame.

    I also don't feel like making almost the entire cast become romancable is a good idea. Not only is it quantity over quality but it also gets pretty dumb when it feels like you're walking across a minefield to AVOID "romances" without upsetting any of the characters. Like it makes it annoying to simply have a conversation with the character when the "romance" is so ham-fisted and is pretty much integrated into how much the character likes you as a friend and as a romance. The worst offender is of course Anders from DA2 but this still happened in DA:I.

    I've seen a lot of non-gamers enjoy BioWare games because their sexuality is represented and for the most part the games do a good job of only giving you that content if you explicitly go after it. You'll get a nod to point you in that direction but it is up to the player to decide if they want to see it play out in that way.

    Good for them but I don't see how that makes Dragon Age a better game. I mean if Dragon Age is first and foremost now known for the all-encompassing romances then that alone tells me that the devs are really going in the wrong direction.
    They're not known as great games with tons of good things about them, like representing sexuality well (which it doesn't). Instead the thing people instantly think about now when they hear "Dragon Age" are the ham-fisted romances that try and include all sexualities which wasn't the case with Dragon Age 1.

    This is basically what I'm talking about when I say "forced" and when the end product suffers for it. In Baldurs Gate 2 the romances were a bonus that could go on for quite some time and were fairly complex, but in Dragon Age they have now even focused pretty heavily on the romances but they still can't surpass BG2's. Not only that but with DA the games are even suffering for it.
    If you want to have mixed sexuality romances then just do something like one romance for straight males, one for straight women and one for gay men. You don't need to try and cover all the bases in one game. If the lesbian women get triggered by this and don't get your game because of it then you never wanted them as your consumers anyway. These people are not interested in a good game.
    Then maybe next game make a bi romance instead of the gay one or make it into a gay one for women.

    The main probem with the Bioware audience (not all of them obviously) is how so many of them don't even care about the quality of the game or even the writing, but more about being all inclusive in terms of sexuality and shit. Fuck if I could choose I'd prefer it that they removed ALL romances from the series from now on (if this is how they plan on making them) and instead focus on writing interesting characters, but also more importantly on making a good game. So far the only good Dragon Age is the first one.

    I've not really played many Obsidian titles outside of KOTOR II and an attempted playthrough of Alpha Protocol. I just find on the whole their writing to be very wooden.

    I have absolutely no idea what to say about this. You find stuff written by people like Chris Avellone to be wooden? Well okay then. Chris and his work is so well respected that he is treated as a stretch goal for Kickstarter games like Planescape Tides of Numenera (the first game Planescape Torment which he was heavily involved in is regarded as one of the most well written games to date) and his talent is sought out everywhere. The way they write games opens up for more role playing and adds depth.

    Even though the the other writers at Obsidian are not really on par with Chris they're still well above the writers over at Bioware. The way they handle the "issues" you're talking about is leaps ahead of Bioware, both in terms of the writing and how they're handled in-game/In-universe.
    You can tell people like Josh Sawyer puts a lot of thought into his games from his replies on twitter and other social media.
    So if anything I advice you to try out more Obsidian games.



  • Haha holy fuck this thread is gold.

    "I support equality for everyone, but only if it isn't shoved in my face! Also if the options aren't up ro my standards, they just shouldn't even bother!"

    So men should get two romance options while women get one, and everybody else just gets zero representation in games?

    Im sorry, but love doesn't work how you think it does. It is not black and white.

    I wish you were trolling. I really do.



  • @El-Shmiablo said in Constructive Feedback: Equality, Diversity and Sexualization in Games:

    Haha holy fuck this thread is gold.

    Thank you for your contributon to this thread and how civil you were about it. You clearly also flaunt your open-mindedness and willingness to actually discuss subjects like a reasonable adult. Heck you can't even directly quote me, you have to speak "broadly" in a passive aggressive manner. Talk about having no balls.

    "I support equality for everyone, but only if it isn't shoved in my face! Also if the options aren't up ro my standards, they just shouldn't even bother!"

    Why do you make up these quotations? You constantly try and twist the narrative to suit your purposes. Using clear logical fallacies.

    • I thought I wasn't clear, but I'll try and dumb it down to a simple list since you seem to be incapable of understanding a word I've said:
    • I support equality.
    • I don't like mistreatment or special treatment (which ties directly into my equality belief).
    • I don't like things to be forced in media. If a topic like say racism is brought up or present then it should be in favor of realism in a story, not to forcefully try and push some agenda. For example if the characters try and hit me over the head of how bad racism is then that's bad, if they instead try and use racism to make the story more realistic while trying to broaden people's understanding of it (like in say Mafia 3) then I'm all for it. Since I mentioned Josh before, here's a good response from him (since you don't seem to understand anything I say, maybe you'll understand him). Here's another response from him in regards to this topic.
    • I clearly said that I think that Bioware are not the ones that excel in presenting sexism, but companies Obsidian and Chris Avellone. I listed Bioware as being ham-fisted and amongst the companies that let their game, characters and narrative suffer just to try and push an agenda. They don't value making a good game first. Do you disagree? Then by all means elaborate on why (but since you avoid any elaboration on anything I'm not expecting anything from you, to be honest). I also never said that Bioware shouldn't be allowed to continue the way they have, but from my experience I don't feel like DA2 and DA:I have been shining examples of great RPGs. To me the first DA is still the best (and it also had strong female characters, gay romance, etc.). In the original I particularly enjoyed Shale which was a female.

    So men should get two romance options while women get one, and everybody else just gets zero representation in games?

    Where did I say this? My point was that trying to appeal to everyone's sexual orientation in a single game with all of your characters is pretty dumb. Once you start going down this road there are no limits to how far you can go to try and please everyone. The problem here is that you can't please everyone.
    If you start writing a bunch of characters and then go "Well shit, we need to have one for straight males, one for straight females, one for gay men, one for gay women, one for bi, etc." then you quickly just dumb your characters down and just turn it into a quantity shitshow.

    But what would in your mind be the ideal scenario? Instead of simply spewing vitriol by all means add to the discussion and tell me.

    I wish you were trolling. I really do.

    If there is one thing I hope it's something you do, because you haven't done anything but spit venom while contributining borderline nothing to the thread and the discussion.
    It's like you don't even understand that all you do is shit up the thread.
    To be honest, if you next reply is as banal and juvenile as your recent ones I will refrain from replying to you since all it does it makes the thread worse and worse, which is basically shitting on anyone actually wanting to discuss the topics OP brought up seriously. I will not play a part in shitting it up furhter.
    So either start replying, discussing, elaborating and sharing your thoughts seriously and stop wasting both my time and yours. Let alone shitting up the thread.

    If I don't get someone seriously trying to reply and discuss these subjects with me then I won't bother replying again to this thread. I see no point in trying to spark a discussion with people with no intention of doing so again and again.



  • @suplextrain said in Constructive Feedback: Equality, Diversity and Sexualization in Games:

    @thenerdtheword said in Constructive Feedback: Equality, Diversity and Sexualization in Games:

    In the interest of trying keep things civil I'll ignore this :grimacing:

    You say as you reply with a passive aggressive comment? Maybe don't make a comment like that at all next time, since you don't drive the discussion forward and you're not even being civil about it in the first place. You're only trying to win points, not treating it as a civil discussion.

    Dude, chill. I'm not trying to win any sort of points. This was me dropping the matter like you suggested while also trying to raise the level of discourse with the rest of my response.

    @suplextrain said in Constructive Feedback: Equality, Diversity and Sexualization in Games:

    I've not really played many Obsidian titles outside of KOTOR II and an attempted playthrough of Alpha Protocol. I just find on the whole their writing to be very wooden.

    I have absolutely no idea what to say about this. You find stuff written by people like Chris Avellone to be wooden? Well okay then. Chris and his work is so well respected that he is treated as a stretch goal for Kickstarter games like Planescape Tides of Numenera (the first game Planescape Torment which he was heavily involved in is regarded as one of the most well written games to date) and his talent is sought out everywhere. The way they write games opens up for more role playing and adds depth.

    Even though the the other writers at Obsidian are not really on par with Chris they're still well above the writers over at Bioware. The way they handle the "issues" you're talking about is leaps ahead of Bioware, both in terms of the writing and how they're handled in-game/In-universe.
    You can tell people like Josh Sawyer puts a lot of thought into his games from his replies on twitter and other social media.
    So if anything I advice you to try out more Obsidian games.

    I will check out more Obsidian stuff but I've found their older titles I've played a bit too exposition heavy when talking to characters. As in, you have to sit there while someone explains why things the way they are without any real flavour. BioWare's writing, at least ME2 onwards is all about the characters bringing their viewpoint to exposition which is something I tend to prefer.

    Writing and storytelling is very much a personal preference thing. Some people love one thing while others will actively stay away from it.



  • @suplextrain for somebody who plays the puritan and points out how others are being passive aggressive, you have to be one of the most passive aggressive users I've seen on these forums.

    You do not support equality. You support a definition of equality that is convenient for you. Your definition operates under the assumption that everybody is, by default, already treated equal by everyone else.

    I have provided some handy links to show you just HOW unequal the entertainment industry is in it's treatment of women and PoC.

    http://www.weforshe.org/statistics-of-women-in-television

    https://www.nyfa.edu/film-school-blog/gender-inequality-in-film/

    http://www.indiewire.com/2015/02/sorry-ladies-study-on-women-in-film-and-television-confirms-the-worst-65220/

    You claim that you do not like special treatment, yet promote male centric views and opinions. You ignore female/other opinions out of convenience.

    You do not like to be confronted with what you "percieve" to be agenda based opinions in your entertainment. I would love to see your guidelines for what qualifies as an agenda, because right now it seems like anything you are uncomfortable with could be considered an agenda. Every content creator from every form of entertainment express opinions in their works. You disapproval of heavy handedness is subjective at the very best.

    You purport that diversity weakens projects. That is your opinion. My opinion is that diversity helps to strengthen a product, and if a writer is unable to include diversity in said product, their own capablilties should be in question, and not the capabilities of the user.

    I, and many others HAVE been trying to have serious discussions with you. That you ignore the arguments against your own and the facts we set forth is beyond our control, so please stop playing the victim here.
    Also, please stop accusing others of lacking elaboration when you haven't been able to elaborate on anything other than expressing that it is your opinion.

    Please take this post as trolling. Please please please... I don't have enough time in my day to continue arguing with contrarian ignorants...



  • @Art said in Constructive Feedback: Equality, Diversity and Sexualization in Games:

    You're all just a bunch of sexist white heterosexual males.

    Naturally.



  • @Musou-Tensei said in Constructive Feedback: Equality, Diversity and Sexualization in Games:

    @Art said in Constructive Feedback: Equality, Diversity and Sexualization in Games:

    You're all just a bunch of sexist white heterosexual males.

    Naturally.

    alt text



  • i disliked nadine in uncharted 4, i did like her character and im all for equality but naughty dog including her was just so they could have diversity. Theres now way a woman can beat 2 men of sam and Nate's phsyic in a fight 2 on 1, one on one maybe but it bullshit to think a woman let alone a man could take on 2 men who are in the shape of nate and sam in a fight