Premise of Persona 5 is depressingly horrifying
TokyoSlim last edited by TokyoSlim
Yeah, as has been pointed out, it's the stealing of the treasure that's the catalyst for change and not the actual boss fight. It's just that, quite accurately, people fiercely protect their own delusions that they use to prop their distorted worlds up.
I found it interesting in retrospect that the first dungeon/boss:
Was themed about lust and power, but his treasure was actually the celebrity and notoriety of the Olympic medal that allowed him to get away with living his carnal fantasies.
SabotageTheTruth last edited by SabotageTheTruth
Then main characters motivation to continue to be Phantom Thieves was presented in very selfish way. Some people were meant so let’s STEAL THEIR SOULS, that way we have more twitter followers.
The motivation for the first palace wasn't because Kamoshida was "mean". You're also not stealing souls, but rather stealing the manifestation of their desires and forcing them to take a hard look at who they really are. I'll use a spoiler tag here even though I'd hope anyone reading would be past the first palace.
He physically abused students. He raped female students. He forced people into uncomfortable situations just to please himself. His actions led to a suicide attempt by Shiho. Wanting to remove someone like that from prominence is not a selfish act at all, even if there are extra motives thrown in as well - such as not wanting to violate your probation.
As for wanting more recognition, I love how it ties in to Mementos. Since Mementos is essentially the collective unconscious, more recognition means they're able to explore more and help more people. I wouldn't call their acts completely selfless but then again, what human being can say that? Considering the series as a whole is deeply tied to Carl Jung's philosophies, I think they found an entirely unique (and dare I say clever) way of making that a mechanic and giving it context.
Mbun last edited by
@mrnikiter So you skeedaddled right past the part where highschoolers are making pacts with essentially demons for power and are upset the kids are a tad selfish as kids tend to be? Just be glad they're not shooting themselves in the head to summon their power anymore.
mrnikiter last edited by
I understand that theoretically stealing desires should create change and not a boss fight. Strong desires allow people ignore "evil part" of themselves and overcome guilt. Without desires they forced to face their "evil part", feel guilty about it and change because of guilt. That's how cat explains it (at least how I understand it), but that's not what happens in the game. In the game "evil" part turns into monster, you beat that monster, "evil part" falls on the knees and tells how sorry he is. But thinking more about it, it’s probably more unfortunate representation of interesting idea than fundamental flaw.
Characters motivation still bothers me though. While mechanically more followers allow them go deeper into Mementos to find out source of it all (I guess), it is not why they want more follower, at least initially. And the way they show disappointment that there is no new targets, suggest to me that they just want to be cool and famous dudes/girls/cats who fight monsters in fantasy world, rather than help people. Which is probably not unrealistic representation of teenagers? But I just feel they are not very good people who use and abuse their power to satisfy their desires. Not unlike their targets. On other hand who would not want to be cool dude/girl/cat fighting monsters? They at least find bad people to hurt.
@SabotageTheTruth By mean people I did not mean Kamoshida, but people in restaurant, who seem to be a catalyst in creation of Phantom Thefts club. And while desires are not technically a soul, it is what makes us who we are, so for me it’s pretty much the same.
@Mbun I might indeed skedaddled past demon pacts. I assumed personas are part of someones
consciousness which just happens to look cool in other world.
Thanks everyone for commenting, it's really helps me to develop my thoughts.
Haru17 last edited by
@mrnikiter You're cherrypicking quotes.
Ann verbatim says that she wants the Phantom Thieves' good deeds to be heard widely that she can give hope to as many people as possible. All in the context of this oppressively hateful school that main character transfers into, and her futile attempts to flirt with their violent child rapist teacher just to draw his ire from her friend, who only narrowly survived a suicide attempt.
I'd say the premise is pretty normative except for the fact that it deals with real social issues, with the party members and situations becoming more complex as you go. Although, if you were really bothered by the whole cathartic violence thing, I don't know what other, more high-minded games you have been playing.
TokyoSlim last edited by TokyoSlim
but that's not what happens in the game
It's exactly what happens in the game?
The "boss fight" is the shadow self trying to protect it's desires. Kamoshida fought you when he saw you stealing his crown. His crown represents how he feels he's better than everyone else. And It turns out that part of why he feels that way was because everyone treated him that way due to his Gold Medal and athletic prowess. You "beat" him when you take it from him and make him see how he's been acting without the self delusion that he's superior and can do whatever he wants. Not because you punched him.
SabotageTheTruth last edited by
So alright, here's my question - if you find the motivations of the characters here appalling, why do you give a pass to Persona 4? Yosuke (for the entire game) talks about how cool what they're doing is, how he could potentially use it to pick up chicks, etc.and he is a major driving force behind the party, considering he is the first real member you get. How did you get someone to accept their true self in that game? You fight a boss. The characters in Persona 4 are much more self-absorbed, have lesser problems (in my eyes), and gripe more. The ones expressed in 5 feel much more grounded.
The concept that people should do good just because it is the "right" thing is such a nice thing on paper - but it isn't reality. It's not how people actually function. Characters like Superman can get away with it because he's technically an alien but think about any well-written comic book hero or even literary hero. Do they uphold justice just because they feel like it should be done? Nah. There's almost always a benefit for them as well.
Dive in deeper to the game and you get some solid questions about justice and what it truly means - and the idea behind if the Phantom Thieves are just is something the party is presented with and discusses. There's also characters that join up that have some really damn moving reasons for being there (3rd and 4th palace, I'm looking at you).
mrnikiter last edited by
@Haru17 said in
You're cherrypicking quotes.
You probably right, by the time diner scene came up I was already upset with the game and was in full "conformation bias mode", and quotes I found most jarring stick with me the most.
I tried to pinpoint what actually makes me upset and why I was not similarly bothered with P4. I agree that Persona 4 is less serious, you deal mostly with teenage social anxieties and in dungeons you straight up save people. I felt game keep appropriate amount of seriousness/aloofness in this context.
P5 is much more dark game. And I again agree with you that it feels more serious and real. And what you do in the dungeons is more questionable. You go into mind of people you don't like, rip out fundamental part of their consciousness and turn them into people you want. I just can't get over how fucked up it is. In the beginning of the game character have doubts if it right or wrong, but they have a lot of reasons to go through with it and no real alternatives. But then game drop all doubts and do it too sudden. Characters become more concerned with "if it gona work" and not if it was right. And apparently if you destroyed someones personality by no one died it's all fine and dandy. So I find myself bending peoples will to my liking because they are bullies. Seems a bit much to me, could you at least talk to them first? (would be probably super annoying mechanically)
I guess I am upset that game turns out to be not about real people dealing with real problems where magic is just an interesting backdrop and allegory of your real abilities. In this game magic IS the answer for all problems.
FF7Cloud last edited by FF7Cloud
@mrnikiter Stick with it because that exact issue is brought up by a character between the 2nd and 3rd dungeons.
DMCMaster last edited by
I really wish the P3 films would get a proper US release, although Anieplex would probably charge like $90 per film.