(No Spoilers) It's unfair to say Persona 5 is better than FFXV



  • @SabotageTheTruth

    (May Include Spoilers)

    So Ignis likes to cook, and Promoto likes to take pictures is all you got from those characters? That's unfortunate, because I believe their tone, and personality are a bit more complex then what you make them out to be.

    Couldn't you say the same thing about Persona 5? Some of the party members can be simplified in the same manner as you just said about FFXV's characters.

    This party member likes art...Another party member fills the bro role, and is the stupid student who barely studies. Another party fills the honor student role, I mean I can go on and on. In fact some of the Persona 5 characters can feel very similar to the party members of the older games.

    Ann-Yukari
    Mitsuru- Makoto(both intelligent and even drive a motorcycle)
    Morgana is obviously suppose to be this game's teddy.
    Yosuke- Ryuji- Junpei (Both the Main Characters Bro, that doesn't care about their studies, and are hot-headed.)

    At least the characters in FFXV are pretty different from it's past games. I'm not trying to bash Persona 5, because I really am enjoying the game, but I think people are a bit too hard on FFXV.



  • @Descendant The characters in Persona always seem to fit into archetypes, this is very true. Going through their social links/confidant roles/friendship buddies always gleams more of their personalities. Sure, Ryuji is hot-headed, vulgar, and acts before thinking but he's also riddled with guilt, has family issues, and has problems admitting he is wrong. I could dive into each Persona character like that; surface level they easily fill roles the series has already created, dive in deeper and you find the differences.

    Again though, with nearly 30 hours in FFXV, I don't have anything more to say about the main cast. Ignis likes to cook and he doesn't like me driving at night? I know because he told me over and over and over and over. After going through all those adventures though, I didn't know more about their pasts or interests beyond the mechanics of the game. That amount of time should give me something but.. it doesn't.

    In the end, I feel like the point you're making is because something tries to be different, we should praise it for that. For example, I actually like Final Fantasy 13 (more than 15, honestly) and as 'unique' as that game is, I don't think it's unfair to say another game in the same genre is better. 13 struggles with a lot. 15 struggles with a lot. Persona 5 struggles with... building on an established foundation in its own series and polishing those bits to an impressive degree? I don't believe borrowing ideas from yourself makes your end product any lesser. Episode V of Star Wars also has Luke Skywalker, I wouldn't fault them for bringing him back (I realize this is an extreme example).

    To bring another game into the discussion, look at Legend of Zelda: Breath of the Wild. Much like FFXV, it also went open-world and... it tried new things we haven't really seen before, with less development time and more praise. You can say they did slack it on dungeon design (a staple of the series) but both critics and the general public were blown away by the host of new ideas that were implemented.

    Paraphrasing nearly every comment here, FFXV isn't a bad game... but it isn't a great one either. It's perfectly okay to love it even while realizing it isn't one of the greats. I believe Huber summed it up best when he explained that it feels amazing when everything clicks in the game, but it just doesn't happen often enough to be profound.



  • @Descendant said in (No Spoilers) It's unfair to say Persona 5 is better than FFXV:

    So Ignis likes to cook, and Promoto likes to take pictures is all you got from those characters? That's unfortunate, because I believe their tone, and personality are a bit more complex then what you make them out to be.

    The characters lack depth and motivation. They're one-dimensional. Beyond having one gimmick tied to them they're characters we've seen many times before. If it wasn't for the Brotherhood anime I most likely wouldn't have cared much at all for them and that's something I had to watch outside of the game.

    Couldn't you say the same thing about Persona 5? Some of the party members can be simplified in the same manner as you just said about FFXV's characters.

    No they actually can't. Each character is presented different motivations, struggles, quirks, growth, etc. The characters in Persona 5 are much better written and presented.
    You're confusing being able to dumb a character down (seriously any character in anything can be dumbed down) to what defines them as characters.

    Let's take Prompto for example. That character has very little depth and receives very little character development. The one thing we get at the very end is something thrown in your lap about him finding out something about his origins in not even a 5min discussion and after that it is never mentioned again, nor do we see anything change about him or the other characters after it. Basically that entire scene served no purpose and could've been cut. So what memorable moments in terms of his character is there beyond his photography? What memorable lines?

    At least the characters in FFXV are pretty different from it's past games.

    I'm not following you. The charactes in FF games tend to be different from one another. Compare the cast of charactes in 6 to 7, then compare 8 to 9, 10 to 12.
    FF15 actually has some of the weakest characters in recent FF memory. I cared 10x more about characters like Balthier, Fran and Basch than I did for anyone in FF15.

    I mean think back to say FF7. We got to learn a ton about the cast of characters.For Barret alone we got to know him and learn about his past and motivations in depth. We got to learn about his past in the village, how he came to take care of his "daughter", how he got his gun-arm, him re-uniting with his friend Dyne, etc. We got to learn more about Barret than all 4 of Noctis retainers combined. By theend of the game we understood Barret as a character. With for example Ignis I really don't know much about him at all, nor what drives him.

    but I think people are a bit too hard on FFXV.

    I'm being fair. Heck I'm probably being more forgiving than I should. Almost every single aspect about the game has problems. It's a very very rough game. From the story to the gameplay.



  • @SabotageTheTruth

    I'm not saying because FFXV is different, that means we should give it credit. I'm saying it does some really cool stuff, and we should give it credit for that.

    The battle system was a lot of fun, made even the random battles a blast to play. It gave you almost an action game feel to its combat. The way your party talks on their own, says new stuff based on the areas that you are in, etc.

    The summons are a spectacle to watch, and the way they trigger makes them feel special. Most Final Fantasy games the summons are just mere tools, in FFXV they feel way more important to not only battle, but even the lore to its own world.

    The open world is fun to explore, there are dungeons to tackle, all kinds of different side quests, and I personally really enjoyed the car aspect of the game. Listening to FF8 music while enjoying the beautiful scenery was such a cool feature.

    I can keep going, but all I'm saying there are plenty of postive things about FFXV. Persona 5 is also a great game, that I can't wait to finish soon. But it's also very safe, and I wished there was a bit more risk involved.

    And as far as development time is concerned, I think that point isn't as important. Just because a game was announced 10 years ago, doesn't mean the developers were actively working on it for 10 years. Nomura had all those side projects, members of the FFVS13 team being pulled to work on FF13(which I hated), and who knows what else went on.

    I mean Persona 4 came out late PS2 era, and Persona 5 came out 2 gens later. They definitely had plenty of time to work on it.



  • @Descendant The development of P5 didn't begin until they finished Catherine. Reference

    Budget and development time absolutely matter. I guarantee Mass Effect: Andromeda wouldn't be getting so much heat right now if it had more development time.

    The battle system is very reminiscent of Kingdom Hearts, which is another Square-Enix property so I honestly can't give credit there. The summons are absolutely beautiful and I love seeing the devastation they create in the environment. Considering all the side quests boiled down to fetch quests, I can't say they really filled me with a sense of adventure.

    Who knew a game that talks about rape, societal reform, suicide, and abuse within the opening hours would be called safe? That's the last word I'd use.

    But hey, I think both of our biases are showing. You like FFXV more, I like Persona 5 more. I'll say this much - I don't think the Persona talk is gonna die down for awhile. Fever pitch time!

    alt text



  • @Descendant As mentioned I think you simply reducing the characters to their face value and I don't think that is a fair thing to do given that in the Persona games there's always more depth to them, again I can't speak for the FFXV characters.

    And those comparisons of the characters also don't hold up in my opinion when you look into them in depth.

    Yosuke is very different from both Junpei and Ryuji, and these two have their own particularities that definitively differentiate them, just because they serve the same role doesn't mean they are the same person with same motivations and personality. I can very easily say the same for Makoto and Mitsuru with their demeanor, and a comparisson between Yukari and Ann doesn't hold up to me. Again I think this only holds up if you reduce the characters to their most basic role and at that point we are only looking at the most superficial aspect of the game.



  • @SabotageTheTruth

    I mean...How can I be biased when I stated I enjoy both games? My argument wasn't that FFXV is better, I just think it's unfair to judge it, since they are two vastly different kinds of games.

    I mean FFXV didn't have Witcher 3 level side quests, but honestly Persona 5's sidequests arent much better...

    I wish Persona 5 all the success in the world, and I hope it goes on to sell millions of copies. I'm just saying it's unfair to judge as a whole "videogame."

    At the end of the day Persona is still a niche game, that didn't need to be rushed. FFXV and Mass Effect Andromeda are mainstream titles by big publishers who are trying to rush it to release by a deadline. It's unfair however you compare.



  • I mean, I hate Ryuji's role as the 'joke character' and basically every one of his texts... but Prompto is like ten times worse. He's literally in the game to fanboy-pander over Final Fantasy nostalgia like chocobos, which makes for some truly hateful fourth wall stuff.

    Persona's town systems may be a bit clinical and dated, but I'd take them any day over another Final Fantasy XV, The Legend of Zelda: Breath of the Wild, or Metal Gear Solid 5: The Phantom Pain where they literally lost the story for the trees in pursuit of the open world fool's throne. Those games are just more walking with less talking, which sucks!



  • @Descendant said in (No Spoilers) It's unfair to say Persona 5 is better than FFXV:

    The battle system was a lot of fun, made even the random battles a blast to play. It gave you almost an action game feel to its combat. The way your party talks on their own, says new stuff based on the areas that you are in, etc.

    It was ok. Pretty fun at first but extremely shallow and easy. I can't really think of any fights that actually engaged me and made me think. It was pretty mindless all the way through. The combat boils down to buttonmashing and it's so difficult to actually die that any tension the fights might've had is lost.

    The summons are a spectacle to watch, and the way they trigger makes them feel special. Most Final Fantasy games the summons are just mere tools, in FFXV they feel way more important to not only battle, but even the lore to its own world.

    I honestly thought the summons were handled terribly.
    Too few, the way you got them were pretty underwhelming (Ramuh was fine, but the fight with Titan and Leviathan were just straight up bad, only designed for spectacle and not fun or interesting in terms of gameplay).
    No control over when they got summoned, so they basically only got summoned when you didn't even need them (like Ramuh shows up to kill some random trash mobs). Well that is unless you found out the way to abuse them.
    There was no search for hidden ones or anything, you got all the summons through the story.
    In FF15 the summons were basically a non-factor in battle, so I honestly have no idea what you're talking about. In for example FF8 not only did they alter what each character could do, they gave you different options both outside of and in combat. You had full control of how and when to use them.

    The open world is fun to explore, there are dungeons to tackle, all kinds of different side quests, and I personally really enjoyed the car aspect of the game. Listening to FF8 music while enjoying the beautiful scenery was such a cool feature.

    Too bad that aspect was thrown out the window about halfway through.

    I can keep going, but all I'm saying there are plenty of postive things about FFXV

    I don't really see what your point is with this though? I can list positives for many mediocre or even bad games. Just because there are positive aspects to a game doesn't mean that all the faults the game has should be ignored. FF15 gets flak for numerous legit reasons.
    Even so, FF15 got an overall positive image from the media and the playerbase, so I don't see why you make it seem like the game is getting tons of unjustified heat thrown its way.

    And as far as development time is concerned, I think that point isn't as important. Just because a game was announced 10 years ago, doesn't mean the developers were actively working on it for 10 years.

    They actually were and that's why the game was such a mess. It got reworked several times and the development was a complete disaster. That's why the game feels so rough and like a hodgepodge of countless ideas. The fact that Tabata, his restructuring and his team managed to salvage FF15 into a playable state is what's commendable, not anything the game itself did if you ask me. Everything it did has basically been done better in other games and it didn't really push the genre forward in any way.

    I get it, you really like FF15, but that game isn't extremely well polished or well designed, so it's natural that it's a divisive game.



  • @Haru17

    (Persona 5 Spoilers)

    I also don't like how the party and mainly Morgana constantly accuse Ryuji of being stupid...It's pretty damn annoying how often they crap on his excitement.

    And yes it's sad that Persona's "towns" is better than MGSV and FF15.

    Speaking of MGSV, that is another good example of a game that does need some credit. It's the worse MGS in my opinion, but it still did some really cool, and new stuff for the series.



  • @Descendant said in (No Spoilers) It's unfair to say Persona 5 is better than FFXV:

    Speaking of MGSV, that is another good example of a game that does need some credit. It's the worse MGS in my opinion, but it still did some really cool, and new stuff for the series.

    Wait, we need to give MGSV more credit? It won a few GoTY awards, and plenty of people loved it.

    Either way, I'm unsure about the point of this whole post. Who is even comparing FFXV and P5 except that they're both classified as JRPGS? They're different games. It does no good to compare two different games, it's unfair on both.



  • Persona 5 is a complete game, XV is a quilt of unfinished ideas and rushed deadlines.

    It's unfair to compare them because they aren't even in the same league.


  • Banned

    "Ten" years of development.

    Yeah, like anyone really believes that. It was probably shoved out in roughly 3 to 4 years which is why the whole game feels rushed.



  • Persona 5 is better is almost every way, FFXV is a mess from start to finish with literally no soul



  • @Art said in (No Spoilers) It's unfair to say Persona 5 is better than FFXV:

    Yeah, like anyone really believes that. It was probably shoved out in roughly 3 to 4 years which is why the whole game feels rushed.

    Actually it was in development for possibly even longer. It was in development hell. It changed from a last gen (ps3) to a current gen game, it took so long to come out it had to go multiplat, they had problems with the engine, it changed from a FF13 spin-off to a mainline entry with the gameplay and story being reworked, Nomura was split between Kingdom Hearts and FF Versus/15, change in management, etc.

    If you read up on interviews on the development of this game and how Tabata had to come in and try and fix it (and how he changed the workstructure of the entire team) you actually realize how amazing of a feat it was that they managed to piece something together that wasn't shit. That is what impressed me with FF15, not the game itself.

    I didn't save any of the articles and other stuff I read, naturally, but here are 2 articles that hopefully shed some light:
    http://www.trustedreviews.com/opinions/the-secret-history-of-final-fantasy-15-revealed-as-director-hajime-tabata-bares-all
    http://www.gameinformer.com/b/news/archive/2017/03/01/director-hajime-tabata-compares-final-fantasy-xv-development-to-climbing-mt-denali.aspx


  • Banned

    @suplextrain Can we really count stuff that was created, thrown out and ignored for years?



  • @Art said in (No Spoilers) It's unfair to say Persona 5 is better than FFXV:

    Can we really count stuff that was created, thrown out and ignored for years?

    Well I view it as part of the development process. The developers were actively working on the game during all that time, after all.
    There are many cases of when a game had to be reworked almost from scratch because what they had didn't work out. For example, Metal Gear Rising.



  • @suplextrain said in (No Spoilers) It's unfair to say Persona 5 is better than FFXV:

    Persona 5 is an extremely well-made and designed game, FF15 was and is a convoluted mess.
    FF15 is "condemned" for all the problems it has. It's impressive that they managed to salvage that game, but it's still riddled with problems.

    I personally didn't find FF15 to do a lot of things right (in terms of pushing the JRPG genre forward). Some interesting ideas sure, but they were poorly implemented. For example the idea of a roadtrip game is interesting, but it doesn't really feel like it since the longest you travel with the car is just to the backyard of Insomnia, after a certain point the car is basically thrown away (the moment you get on the boat).

    No, ideas are easy but implementing them well and making a great game with them is not. The only real respect I have for FF15 is directed towards Tabata and his team. On the other hand Persona 5 is one of the best JRPGs in many many years, addressing many of the problems present in the genre. That game pushed the genre more forward than FF15 did.

    ^ I agree with this.

    I don't find the things FFXV tried to do differently to be a benefit to the genre anyway, but what makes it worse is that it didn't even pull them off very well either. There's honestly little to nothing I want to give FFXV extra credit for.



  • @Art Really? heres a 2006 trailer

    Youtube Video



  • Xenoblade is better than both of them and all other JRPG's anyway so doesn't really if persona is better than final fantasy or vice versa at the end of the day. :3