Not staying Silent (Re: Brandon's "Line Crossing" talk in Podcast#77 L&R)



  • Brandon,

    You said that you can not know what offends/hurts someone in the EZA community unless they tell you, so here it goes.

    The amount that members of EZA utter the phrases "G-- Damn" and "J---s C----t".

    As someone who believes that these two entities exist it pains me every time this occurs on a podcast or a stream, worse still when "F------g" is woven in.
    Anit-Semitic, racial, gender, orientation slurs and bias' are fantastically almost non-existent in this community (at least as far as our on-screen representatives go). Even most religions are treated with careful respect. I just wanted to let you know that there are members of your community that regard the entities of God and Jesus with the utmost respect and using those phrases with such flippant irreverence is hurtful to those who do.

    I am not asking that you believe as I do, and I am not leaving this fantastic community or dropping support. I am just am responding to let you know as you expressed the only way you can know.

    Continued Love and Respect,

    MyxeQ



  • @MyxeQ I really appreciate you writing this in such a constructive manner. I absolutely love the Allies and the amazing community that they have helped to cultivate. I greatly respect you having the courage to speak your convictions in this way to try and make the community even more welcoming and respectful.

    That said, I could definitely be better in this department. I share similar beliefs, but I often get careless with the words I speak. I sometimes blame it on my work environment, but that's really no excuse. I want to do my part to be more loving and respectful as well. (:



  • This one is a weird one for me. Context:

    I grew up with a 2nd generation Irish Catholic grandfather. You could use whatever expletive around him you wanted, under the right company and circumstances, but using the Lord's name in vain was unforgivable.

    On the other side was 3rd generation Danish Lutheran family where swearing wasn't a thing to be done, full stop.

    As a full time sales rep with a full time Catholic wife, I'm very sensitive to others' sensibilities. However, I am also completely forgiving of the way our secular world speaks.

    I live one way, allow the world to live theirs, and understand the frustration with everything in between.



  • I think this thread's premise is misreading secularism speech a little, so I'd like to attempt to reframe the issue. To start with a bit of context, I'm agnostic (father agnostic, mother undefined spiritual, also real reverent of Jesus), progressive, and am generally careful not to say hurtful things to people.

    So, racial epithets, misogynistic speech, homophobic slurs all attack groups of people, right? They're all derogatory and said with either hate or disregard and serve to other that group of people into a preconception of what all/most members of that demographic are. A lot of these are essentialist and dictate that because a person is of a certain race they are and will always be a certain way because of their race, sex, sexuality, etc.

    I don't see people using 'god' in casual speech as attacking Christian religion or the religious so much as not (necessarily) participating in it. When people use these terms or phrases they don't seem particularly incensed, at least not at Biblical figures or practicing Christians. I think it's more that Christian religion has been ubiquitous in English-speaking countries for hundreds and hundreds of the years to the point where it has become intertwined with the language. Words like 'charity' even still possess their Christian connotation. I remember consciously trying to stop saying Christian phrases when I was younger and agnostic, but giving up because they're part of the modern American vernacular and I liked writing and expressing myself too much to give them up.

    Back to the topic at hand, when the Allies curse or invoke the almighty in streams I don't think it's about god at all. It's not that they're profaning, it's just that they're not participating. Conversely they could just be faithful in a different, perhaps less detail-oriented way.

    I really do think that the 'direction' of the offensive speech is imperative here. 'God,' besides its religious connotations, is an English word with a general meaning not necessarily specific to any group of people. Slurs like the one PewDiePie used are very targeted. That specific slang became closely associated with white supremacy and was used as a tool to enslave, subjugate, de-humanize, and oppress an entire group of people.

    So I don't think comparing the two is intellectually honest (That's not to say I'm accusing you of intentionally being dishonest, I just want to present another way of looking at things.) I don't expect this to help much at all, but I would suggest that the Allies aren't using holy nouns or curses in the contest of Christianity or worship. And I definitely don't think they mean to be hurtful.

    Of course you're entitled to express your opinion and I don't assume to know how the Allies would respond to this thread, I just wanted to offer my interpretation. And with that I'll end my longwinded wall of a reply... wow that's a lot of pronouns!



  • How about they just say whatever they want?



  • I can respect it, but I'm an atheist. Outside of the obvious BAD things people shouldn't say in public or on air....I'm gonna say just about whatever the hell I want.

    There's only so much of a person's vocabulary that I'm expecting them to curb before it's just becoming a bit too much, downright oppressive even. It's fine if they want to, like I know Ian tries not to say these things, and for obvious reasons Bloodworth doesn't either.

    But slips do happen with most people, if not everyone.

    And as brandon said....you can't know what bothers people until they tell you, but at the same time....everyone is different. There's clear and defined trigger words as I said before which just about anyone would be upset over, but the rest is literally so mundane to me that it's absurd to even mention.

    I'd almost compare it to being mad that someone said "Crap" But that's just me.

    @Haru17 Said it best honestly, it's not much different from how I feel.

    @Jigoku-no-Musou said in Not staying Silent (Re: Brandon's "Line Crossing" talk in Podcast#77 L&R):

    How about they just say whatever they want?

    There should be an expectation of clean language, for children and whatnot but yeah...there's a limit as far as I'm concerned, that's up to them if they want to do it.



  • Just to sort of interject, I think it's important to note that OP hasn't asked anyone to change the way they talk at all. He's just pointing out something that does cause him pain, as much valid feedback as anything else.

    Just think it's important as the following responses are sort of framing it that way.



  • @Haru17
    I indeed was not accusing the Allies of using "God" and derivatives as an intentional hurtful/anti Judea-Christian attack. I do understand how much in English phrases like "OMG" have become so ingrained to the point my two year old niece said it when she was upset. I was more specifically referring to times it is used as an expletive not just an exclamation.
    For the same reason I would not use "Ala Damn" or "F-----g Mohamed" I don't use the "Almighty" as an expletive. Because even if I do not care about those entities or that interpretation of those entities, there are people who do.
    I agree with you that the PDP slur and this is not a direct comparison, and that is why I did not even reference that in my OP. I was referring to Jones' general statement about needing to here directly from the community of things like this.

    @Jigoku-no-Musou & @ZyloWolfBane
    They are indeed free to say what ever they want. As @Hazz3r pointed out, I never said "you have to change". All I was doing was letting the Allies know. I have friends who knowing my position alter their behavior a bit and I have friends who don't. And I still care about all of them.
    My grandfather (God Rest Him), I never heard him say ANYTHING above "crud". I don't know how he did it.

    I am not here up on a soap box trying to be a moral compass or anything, the Allies already have a Long Haired, Tall, Bearded, Man of God amongst them already in Bloodworth, so I would be completely redundant. I am just here as a friend voicing an issue. I have already accomplished my goal of saying my piece. I don't demand or expect anything to change I just felt that it was time for me to say something.

    With all sincere Love and Respect.



  • So this is obviously a bit of a tricky pickle to approach, but I'll try to do my best. From the top, nothing here is meant as a personal attack.

    Honestly though, I measure people's words through their intent. We aren't always eloquent people, especially when presented in stressful situations (such as dying in a video game), so what we mean to say and what we actually say are usually vastly different things. Considering everyone here seems aware they are merely venting frustration and not actually cursing any deities, it does seem a little strange to take offense to it. Truth of the matter is, wanting anyone (much less a group of people) to completely change part of their vernacular that is hard-wired in is next to impossible. What certainly is more realistic is a change in one's self though. If something bothers you, find the root of it, and try to understand what you can do to remove the hurt. Only you control your reaction to the world around you and considering there is no ill intent in the curses exclaimed, it may be best to just try to avoid taking offense in just the first place.

    The one thing I will poke a bit of a hole in though is that posting something here under the comments and feedback section does mean you expect or would like a change, otherwise you wouldn't post it at all. Maybe a few of the Allies will see this and make an honest effort to do better, but that phrase is going to exist in the world and I guarantee you'll hear it hundreds of more times. If you can make peace with that, you may be happier in the long run.

    I'm no expert in who you are, I can only say what works personally for me. Living in a very Christian-centric society, I can't count the number of times I've been told I'm going to hell or I'm wrong for my lack of belief. Even though those are obviously much more targeted statements, I still just let them bounce off of me because I'm very comfortable with my lifestyle and even though the approach of the people making those statements is severely misguided, I do realize it comes from a place of good intent.

    I will admit though, I've become so desensitized to cursing, I hadn't even realized they've been saying any of the above - or at least not frequently.



  • @MyxeQ Good post, speaking up like this is for the benefit of everyone.

    I used to use a lot of profanity all the time and it's still a challenge for me when expressing annoyance or enthusiasm and some of my go-to's are religious ones.

    It never bothered me or anyone else, but then someone I frequently interact with told me "Hey, it actually bothers me".

    Of course my first reaction was "Well, I don't mean it, I respect your religion it's really no big deal", but when I give it some thought, they are really useless phrases and are easy to replace with anything else. Especially in text.

    It takes some minor reconditioning of the brain to avoid profanity in general, but it doesn't take away from your messaging or personality if you clean up your language at all.

    OP specifically mentioned it's not a deal breaker, but it's a good topic to bring up after the issue got prompted in the podcast.

    Kudos



  • Honestly, you will always upset or trigger someone no matter what you say. Constantly going "can we say this, can we say that?" is dumb. Especially since in many cases the things people get upset or triggered by is mainly their own oversensitiveness.
    If OP legit gets upset by people saying "God Damn" then he frankly needs to grow thicker skin. There comes a point where you need to undersand that you're the problem. Oversensitive people are usually sources of conflict.
    Let's face it, a lot of the things people get upset by people saying is petty. In this case I seriously doubt God or Jesus would want you to get upset or argue over someone saying "God Damn" or "Jesus Christ" if they drop a hammer on their toe or something.
    You have to factor in context and intent as well.

    I know I might come off as an ass here, but frankly I don't care. Showing understanding and politeness goes both ways, you can't just expect everyone to selfishly bow to your wishes. If something upsets you then you should first question if you should get upset by it. Then you should ask yourself is this something you can ignore and accept that people are different (especially when we're talking globally on the internet where certain words can mean different things or carry different weight). After that you should consider taking this discussion with said person directly if you think you're not at fault and it's something worth getting upset over. When bringing up this discussion you shouldn't demand that they stop, but explain to them why it upsets you so. These people are then free to change or not change the way they talk or act.

    Being too tolerant of the intolerant is never a good thing. Both sides showing tolerance is far better since we're all different and learning to let things slide is key to co-existance. Thicker skin leads to less conflict.
    Sure being polite is never a bad thing, but there comes a point where you have to start looking inwards. The problem doesn't always lie with others.



  • @suplextrain If the Allies would completely clean up their language (a challenge) my experience would be completely the same, while for some people it would actively enhance their experience.

    (I personally don't think I could totally clean up my own language either though, so it would be quite the ask, but being aware of it is always an improvement, especially when it would be pointed out to me)



  • Almost nobody who uses "God", "Jesus Christ", or "Holy" as an expletive is thinking about religion at the time.

    People shouldn't have to be on tenterhooks, constantly checking their speech because a few people out of millions will be offended by what is an effectively secular comment.

    And no, it is not a slippery slope to racial epithets. The line could not be clearer.



  • I honestly think that the OP is writing to Brandon specifically and the other allies in general in response to the call for constructive criticism. It doesn't sound like he wanted a debate on whether or not his emotions are valid or whether he has the right to ask this of the allies. Both answers are yes, by the way, whether you agree with the request or not.

    Debating the merits of the criticism offered is (as forum posters/ patrons/ fans) kind of a jerky thing to do, in this specific case, as it seems like we're trying to silence someone's opinion that was volunteered after specifically being asked for.

    Let's not do that. It's not up to us to gauge whether or not the allies can, should, or are even willing to refrain from religious epithets. It's up to them.

    Love and respect.



  • @TheHashtag0nist said in Not staying Silent (Re: Brandon's "Line Crossing" talk in Podcast#77 L&R):

    If the Allies would completely clean up their language (a challenge) my experience would be completely the same, while for some people it would actively enhance their experience.

    Most people wouldn't count "God damn" and "Jesus christ" as cursing, or at the very least amongst the mildest of curses. Asking someone to never ever "curse" no matter what is honestly beyond silly. That would count Damiani just saying "Shit" during the Windjammers group stream when Huber charged his super.
    As I said prior, there comes a point where the problem lies with the ones getting triggered and upset. Especially when we're talking online (since we're counting people the world over and what they find sensitive).

    Take the Overwatch fiasco where 1(!) person thought that it was shameful to have a pose for Tracer where she showed her back (in the same kind of pose as other characters, male or female) because she wore skintight pants. He wanted it removed. Blizzard complied and apologized even though this was supremely silly and pretty much no one agreed with that 1 person. There are times when you shouldn't bend over. You shouldn't be paralyzed in fear of upsetting anyone. In this day and age it has gone overboard with people getting triggered by anything and everything. That's not healthy or positive.
    Again I might come off as an ass, but sometimes you need to put your foot down.

    @TokyoSlim said in Not staying Silent (Re: Brandon's "Line Crossing" talk in Podcast#77 L&R):

    Debating the merits of the criticism offered is (as forum posters/ patrons/ fans) kind of a jerky thing to do, in this specific case, as it seems like we're trying to silence someone's opinion that was volunteered after specifically being asked for.

    He should email them or tell them this directly instead, because most allies do not read forum posts and this could easily be missed, especially if you target a specific ally.
    A forum is intended for discussion.



  • @suplextrain said in Not staying Silent (Re: Brandon's "Line Crossing" talk in Podcast#77 L&R):

    He should email them or tell them this directly instead, because most allies do not read forum posts and this could easily be missed, especially if you target a specific ally.

    This is the specific part of this forum reserved for feedback. It's not posted in general.

    Several Allies read this forum fairly regularly, and if it needs to be passed along to a specific person, I'm pretty sure it can be.

    None of that excuses disrespecting someone's religious or personal beliefs, or downplaying them as unimportant or irrelevant. We can all try to be more respectful of other people. I don't agree with the OP, but they are not asking you or I to do anything but respect that they have different beliefs than some of us, and it seems to be a struggle for some people. This is what trying to have more love and respect is all about.

    They aren't demanding a change, they aren't shaming anyone or demanding that anyone believe what they do. So what's the issue?



  • The ol' "It doesn't bother me, therefore it's not a problem" gotcha

    Also, you throw the word "triggered" around a lot, yet the notion of "maybe use less profanity" seems to have a severe reaction.

    I hope you see the irony in that


  • Global Moderator

    Hashtagonist is right.

    @suplextrain Stop using that word please.



  • This is certainly a different perspective from the one I have, given my fondness for using profanity and quite honestly using it often in derogatory ways with my group of friends (we are for the most part Christian raised, and now anti-religious and agnostic/atheist in a heavily Christian country).

    I can appreciate how you can find hurtful to hear certain things, and I would not presume to tell you should take it likely, and if they decide to act upon your feedback then good for them and you, especially given how constructively you've made your argument.

    That said I honestly have to say I hope they don't take this or similar feedback, and not because of my affinity towards profanity, but because as entertainers I feel that the value from the Allies is greatly improved from their ability to be themselves, and not a calculated version of themselves, which would be appropriate for more professional environments or journalism, but that's certainly not how I see the Allies, and I don't believe that's the vision they have either, now if that still presents a conflict for you and your beliefs I would say there are two options, accepting that their speech is not tailored to your sensibilities and acknowledge that you may take offense with it, or stop following their content if you find you can't agree with it, neither of these would be ideal but things rarely are, and I believe each person has to decide at some point where they stand in terms of entertainment that may hurt their sensibilities, I for example find myself being a big fan of music from some european metal bands which we can basically call Neo-Nazis, which naturally as a latin american I can't agree with their message, but I've decided that I enjoy the music way too much stop listening to it because of it.

    That's my general opinion in relation to this, I think the Allies should essentially be free of expressing themselves as they best fits their vision for the group, and you and anyone else is free to take offense with whatever and however they decide to express themselves, and do what they must based on that.

    L&R



  • @TokyoSlim said in Not staying Silent (Re: Brandon's "Line Crossing" talk in Podcast#77 L&R):

    This is the specific part of this forum reserved for feedback. It's not posted in general.

    It's still a forum and saying that people shouldn't be allowed to comment on this topic is silly. People should be free to speak their minds. If OP can't handle people replying to his posts and them sharing their ideas then frankly he has problems he needs to sort out. Being that close-minded isn't healthy (if it was the case).

    @TokyoSlim said in Not staying Silent (Re: Brandon's "Line Crossing" talk in Podcast#77 L&R):

    None of that excuses disrespecting someone's religious or personal beliefs, or downplaying them as unimportant or irrelevant.

    If someone stubs their toe and says "God Damn" do they disrespect someone's personal beliefs and religion? Really? Do you truly believe this? Please don't just say "Yeah I do" just to try and salvage your own argument.

    @TheHashtag0nist said in Not staying Silent (Re: Brandon's "Line Crossing" talk in Podcast#77 L&R):

    The ol' "It doesn't bother me, therefore it's not a problem" gotcha

    I think a quote by John Cleese applies here: "If people can't control their own emotions they try to control other people's behaviour".

    @tokeeffe9 said in Not staying Silent (Re: Brandon's "Line Crossing" talk in Podcast#77 L&R):

    Stop using that word please.

    What word? Be specific. You won't burn in hell for telling me what word I shouldn't use (and why). If you're that sensitive that you can't even say the word then that's a problem in and of itself, honestly.