Not staying Silent (Re: Brandon's "Line Crossing" talk in Podcast#77 L&R)



  • Honestly, you will always upset or trigger someone no matter what you say. Constantly going "can we say this, can we say that?" is dumb. Especially since in many cases the things people get upset or triggered by is mainly their own oversensitiveness.
    If OP legit gets upset by people saying "God Damn" then he frankly needs to grow thicker skin. There comes a point where you need to undersand that you're the problem. Oversensitive people are usually sources of conflict.
    Let's face it, a lot of the things people get upset by people saying is petty. In this case I seriously doubt God or Jesus would want you to get upset or argue over someone saying "God Damn" or "Jesus Christ" if they drop a hammer on their toe or something.
    You have to factor in context and intent as well.

    I know I might come off as an ass here, but frankly I don't care. Showing understanding and politeness goes both ways, you can't just expect everyone to selfishly bow to your wishes. If something upsets you then you should first question if you should get upset by it. Then you should ask yourself is this something you can ignore and accept that people are different (especially when we're talking globally on the internet where certain words can mean different things or carry different weight). After that you should consider taking this discussion with said person directly if you think you're not at fault and it's something worth getting upset over. When bringing up this discussion you shouldn't demand that they stop, but explain to them why it upsets you so. These people are then free to change or not change the way they talk or act.

    Being too tolerant of the intolerant is never a good thing. Both sides showing tolerance is far better since we're all different and learning to let things slide is key to co-existance. Thicker skin leads to less conflict.
    Sure being polite is never a bad thing, but there comes a point where you have to start looking inwards. The problem doesn't always lie with others.



  • @suplextrain If the Allies would completely clean up their language (a challenge) my experience would be completely the same, while for some people it would actively enhance their experience.

    (I personally don't think I could totally clean up my own language either though, so it would be quite the ask, but being aware of it is always an improvement, especially when it would be pointed out to me)



  • Almost nobody who uses "God", "Jesus Christ", or "Holy" as an expletive is thinking about religion at the time.

    People shouldn't have to be on tenterhooks, constantly checking their speech because a few people out of millions will be offended by what is an effectively secular comment.

    And no, it is not a slippery slope to racial epithets. The line could not be clearer.



  • I honestly think that the OP is writing to Brandon specifically and the other allies in general in response to the call for constructive criticism. It doesn't sound like he wanted a debate on whether or not his emotions are valid or whether he has the right to ask this of the allies. Both answers are yes, by the way, whether you agree with the request or not.

    Debating the merits of the criticism offered is (as forum posters/ patrons/ fans) kind of a jerky thing to do, in this specific case, as it seems like we're trying to silence someone's opinion that was volunteered after specifically being asked for.

    Let's not do that. It's not up to us to gauge whether or not the allies can, should, or are even willing to refrain from religious epithets. It's up to them.

    Love and respect.



  • @TheHashtag0nist said in Not staying Silent (Re: Brandon's "Line Crossing" talk in Podcast#77 L&R):

    If the Allies would completely clean up their language (a challenge) my experience would be completely the same, while for some people it would actively enhance their experience.

    Most people wouldn't count "God damn" and "Jesus christ" as cursing, or at the very least amongst the mildest of curses. Asking someone to never ever "curse" no matter what is honestly beyond silly. That would count Damiani just saying "Shit" during the Windjammers group stream when Huber charged his super.
    As I said prior, there comes a point where the problem lies with the ones getting triggered and upset. Especially when we're talking online (since we're counting people the world over and what they find sensitive).

    Take the Overwatch fiasco where 1(!) person thought that it was shameful to have a pose for Tracer where she showed her back (in the same kind of pose as other characters, male or female) because she wore skintight pants. He wanted it removed. Blizzard complied and apologized even though this was supremely silly and pretty much no one agreed with that 1 person. There are times when you shouldn't bend over. You shouldn't be paralyzed in fear of upsetting anyone. In this day and age it has gone overboard with people getting triggered by anything and everything. That's not healthy or positive.
    Again I might come off as an ass, but sometimes you need to put your foot down.

    @TokyoSlim said in Not staying Silent (Re: Brandon's "Line Crossing" talk in Podcast#77 L&R):

    Debating the merits of the criticism offered is (as forum posters/ patrons/ fans) kind of a jerky thing to do, in this specific case, as it seems like we're trying to silence someone's opinion that was volunteered after specifically being asked for.

    He should email them or tell them this directly instead, because most allies do not read forum posts and this could easily be missed, especially if you target a specific ally.
    A forum is intended for discussion.



  • @suplextrain said in Not staying Silent (Re: Brandon's "Line Crossing" talk in Podcast#77 L&R):

    He should email them or tell them this directly instead, because most allies do not read forum posts and this could easily be missed, especially if you target a specific ally.

    This is the specific part of this forum reserved for feedback. It's not posted in general.

    Several Allies read this forum fairly regularly, and if it needs to be passed along to a specific person, I'm pretty sure it can be.

    None of that excuses disrespecting someone's religious or personal beliefs, or downplaying them as unimportant or irrelevant. We can all try to be more respectful of other people. I don't agree with the OP, but they are not asking you or I to do anything but respect that they have different beliefs than some of us, and it seems to be a struggle for some people. This is what trying to have more love and respect is all about.

    They aren't demanding a change, they aren't shaming anyone or demanding that anyone believe what they do. So what's the issue?



  • The ol' "It doesn't bother me, therefore it's not a problem" gotcha

    Also, you throw the word "triggered" around a lot, yet the notion of "maybe use less profanity" seems to have a severe reaction.

    I hope you see the irony in that



  • Hashtagonist is right.

    @suplextrain Stop using that word please.



  • This is certainly a different perspective from the one I have, given my fondness for using profanity and quite honestly using it often in derogatory ways with my group of friends (we are for the most part Christian raised, and now anti-religious and agnostic/atheist in a heavily Christian country).

    I can appreciate how you can find hurtful to hear certain things, and I would not presume to tell you should take it likely, and if they decide to act upon your feedback then good for them and you, especially given how constructively you've made your argument.

    That said I honestly have to say I hope they don't take this or similar feedback, and not because of my affinity towards profanity, but because as entertainers I feel that the value from the Allies is greatly improved from their ability to be themselves, and not a calculated version of themselves, which would be appropriate for more professional environments or journalism, but that's certainly not how I see the Allies, and I don't believe that's the vision they have either, now if that still presents a conflict for you and your beliefs I would say there are two options, accepting that their speech is not tailored to your sensibilities and acknowledge that you may take offense with it, or stop following their content if you find you can't agree with it, neither of these would be ideal but things rarely are, and I believe each person has to decide at some point where they stand in terms of entertainment that may hurt their sensibilities, I for example find myself being a big fan of music from some european metal bands which we can basically call Neo-Nazis, which naturally as a latin american I can't agree with their message, but I've decided that I enjoy the music way too much stop listening to it because of it.

    That's my general opinion in relation to this, I think the Allies should essentially be free of expressing themselves as they best fits their vision for the group, and you and anyone else is free to take offense with whatever and however they decide to express themselves, and do what they must based on that.

    L&R



  • @TokyoSlim said in Not staying Silent (Re: Brandon's "Line Crossing" talk in Podcast#77 L&R):

    This is the specific part of this forum reserved for feedback. It's not posted in general.

    It's still a forum and saying that people shouldn't be allowed to comment on this topic is silly. People should be free to speak their minds. If OP can't handle people replying to his posts and them sharing their ideas then frankly he has problems he needs to sort out. Being that close-minded isn't healthy (if it was the case).

    @TokyoSlim said in Not staying Silent (Re: Brandon's "Line Crossing" talk in Podcast#77 L&R):

    None of that excuses disrespecting someone's religious or personal beliefs, or downplaying them as unimportant or irrelevant.

    If someone stubs their toe and says "God Damn" do they disrespect someone's personal beliefs and religion? Really? Do you truly believe this? Please don't just say "Yeah I do" just to try and salvage your own argument.

    @TheHashtag0nist said in Not staying Silent (Re: Brandon's "Line Crossing" talk in Podcast#77 L&R):

    The ol' "It doesn't bother me, therefore it's not a problem" gotcha

    I think a quote by John Cleese applies here: "If people can't control their own emotions they try to control other people's behaviour".

    @tokeeffe9 said in Not staying Silent (Re: Brandon's "Line Crossing" talk in Podcast#77 L&R):

    Stop using that word please.

    What word? Be specific. You won't burn in hell for telling me what word I shouldn't use (and why). If you're that sensitive that you can't even say the word then that's a problem in and of itself, honestly.



  • @suplextrain Don't act like you don't know what word he's talking about and if you curse on your own time and love offending people with said words that's on your own time. This is a public forum with rules. You don't say such words in your other posts, why start now.



  • @ib0show said in Not staying Silent (Re: Brandon's "Line Crossing" talk in Podcast#77 L&R):

    Don't act like you don't know what word he's talking about

    I don't. Is it "triggered"? Do you think I'm a mindreader? What's wrong with being clear?

    and if you curse on your own time and love offending people with said words that's on your own time.

    ... what? Are you saying that me typing "God damn" is me being out of line? So I should just vaguely imply what I'm talking about instead?

    You don't say such words in your other posts, why start now.

    Because (I'm assuming you mean "God damn" because you refuse to clarify, correct me if I'm wrong) it's relevant to the discussion? Im discussing it, not using it against someone. Context matters. Or can we not even type the words out when discussing them as adults?

    But hey, if you people want to be babies (no offense) about this then I'll just drop it. Why bother trying to discuss something when there is no interest in doing so. I believe that a lot of people that get get offended by stuff really shouldn't and they should first look inward before they try and tell others how to behave. ANY word can be a trigger for someone. What if I told you that I don't like you using the word "public" because it offends me, should I demand that you should stop using that word and you should comply? Normal words can be triggers as well, like "rape", because said person could've been raped.
    In this instance I don't think GOd or Jesus would be upset. They wouldn't send you to hell for it and I think they're above getting offended by something like this. So why should a person believing in God and Jesus be? These people are not even intentionally saying it to slander God or to belittle his beliefs. Instead he finds that he gets upset by this and instead of asking himself if he really should be upset by it he thinks others should bend to his wishes so that he doesn't get upset.
    But whatever, you people didn't show an interest in discussing this so I'm just wasting my time. But just to be clear, is it "allowed" to say "damn" on this board? Or is that too much? So saying "damn satan" would be fine and it wouldn't upset any satan worshippers? Or are we allowed to offend certain beliefs but not others? Just to be clear, for future reference.



  • If someone stubs their toe and says "God Damn" do they disrespect someone's personal beliefs and religion? Really? Do you truly believe this? Please don't just say "Yeah I do" just to try and salvage your own argument.

    If a group of friends and I are hanging out and one guy asks everyone present if he does anything that bugs them, and the OP replies that the other guy takes the lord's name in vain a lot and their personal beliefs are very strong on that issue - and I then mock them, ridiculing their hurt or trying to minimize their opinion because I don't believe in god, when they weren't even addressing me or asking me to do anything - then I'm being disrespectful to that person and being a bully, yes.

    That is the actual situation here. Nobody is stubbing their toe. We don't need hypothetical analogies or slippery slopes because nothing is being asked or demanded.

    But hey, if you people want to be babies (no offense) about this then I'll just drop it.

    Exhibit A of you being disrespectful. Just because you put (no offense) on it doesn't mean it's not meant as an offense.

    I believe that a lot of people that get get offended by stuff really shouldn't and they should first look inward before they try and tell others how to behave.

    I think you should take your own advice to heart.

    ANY word can be a trigger for someone. What if I told you that I don't like you using the word "public" because it offends me, should I demand that you should stop using that word and you should comply?

    Nobody demanded anything of you. Nobody demanded anything of anyone. Nobody asked for anything to change, nobody is preaching here but you, man.

    Normal words can be triggers as well, like "rape", because said person could've been raped.

    And if one of your friends said, "hey, it kind of bugs me when you make rape jokes, I was raped." and then you mock them and tell them to grow a thicker skin - then you're a jerk.

    In this instance I don't think GOd or Jesus would be upset. They wouldn't send you to hell for it and I think they're above getting offended by something like this. So why should a person believing in God and Jesus be?

    Because not everyone believes what you believe. I'd get used to it.

    These people are not even intentionally saying it to slander God or to belittle his beliefs. Instead he finds that he >gets upset by this and instead of asking himself if he really should be upset by it he thinks others should bend to his wishes so that he doesn't get upset.

    No, that didn't happen.



  • @ib0show I would like to add that it is not clear to me at all what word you are referring to either, so just as suplextrain said be specific, as I don't see either how "God-Damn" is offensive language.

    And on relation to that I would like to add that it is silly to me if we start saying we can't use certain words because it might offend someone sensibilities, there's clear offensive language and then there's personal taste, this is a forum for people from all over the place and with different beliefs, if someone is offended by someone else's way of expressing themselves then that's their own problem (provided there's no ill intent in the message of course).



  • @bard91 Lets not confuse the issue. There is no forum policy being discussed here other than "don't bully people for their beliefs"



  • @TokyoSlim I fail to see the bullying to be perfectly honest, the OP expressed his point of view in relation to the subject, others have stated their own, I don't see any intent in ridiculizing or bullying anyone.



  • @bard91 You don't see how telling someone to grow a thicker skin or stop acting like a baby is bullying them for their beliefs? People are getting personally offended by the OP's post that had nothing to do with them. They are purposefully skewing the OP's words in order to criticize their beliefs.

    Again, I'm not religious and I swear all the time. None of my beliefs on the subject matter in this particular thread because they are not pertinent to whether or not the OP has the right to respond to Jones' direct question to all of us. Of course they do. The OP was also very careful to point out that they are not asking for anything to change due to their beliefs. And yet somehow a couple of people went off on how they don't believe in god and shouldn't have to change because the OP is "triggered". (Triggered, by the way, is the word being requested to not be used. I thought it was perfectly clear) It's a word used to belittle and minimize the feelings of people who have different opinions than you. That's bullying.



  • @TokyoSlim ok acting like a baby is not a good way phrasing it, with that I agree, but I do not believe that it is bullying, growing a thick skin is part of growing and I wouldn't see it as an insult in any way.

    I can't speak for others but I'm not offended by the OPs post, he made a sound argument on his perspective of things, however, given the nature of what he said it is to be expected for it to potentially clash with other's views, in that I do include myself and I have no issue expressing my disagreement with his views, if you, the OP or the mods take that as inappropriate or bullying then you are free to do as you best see fit



  • @bard91 The OP has nothing to do with your views though. I disagree with his views on religion, but that's not what's being discussed.

    What's happening in here are people telling him he doesn't have a right to be upset about something, because they aren't upset about it. That's what "Grow a thicker skin" "acting like babies" and "you're oversensitive" mean. Everyone is upset by something. We all have different emotions and experiences and react to them in different ways. Some people don't like being touched. Some people don't like being talked down to. Telling someone they need to "grow a thicker skin" is a way of saying "don't be upset by things I'm not upset by".



  • @TokyoSlim Wow, bullying really changed, I wish it was that utterly benign when I was in high school, when bullying basically meant to be actively and constantly attacked on a regular basis by real life people I could not really avoid (except by skipping school, which is of course not acceptable) and wishing to be either dead or to be able to "remove" the bullies, not being told to grow a thicker skin by online strangers I could avoid. Kids these days have it way too good, it's kinda disgusting really.