Overrated/Underrated JRPGs



  • @Mbun said in Overrated/Underrated JRPGs:

    Doesn't really seem that you have a point, reading what I'm saying or really paying attention to what you yourself is saying, so I'll drop it.

    I'll just clarify one thing since you seem to get really riled up about stuff for the wrong reasons.

    Or when people were whining about weapons breaking in Breath of the Wild, when you're constantly getting new weapons to replace them, and there's an entire strategy around how you utilize your weapon's durability, when you use weaker ones and when you break out the big ones.

    You don't really seem to understand people's complaints. For me BotW has many problems and one of them is precisely the weapon durability system. Not that the weapon breaks, the entire system.
    Having your stuff break isn't fun, it's designed to force you to switch weapons (pretty complex topic that could fill up an entire thread on its own, but generally you should not try to force players to play how you want them to), it's designed so that you should break your weapons on enemies, the UI for all of this is clunky (which is bad when you have to do it so often), etc. etc. etc.
    To me it seems like they initially designed the game without durability but realized that the combat got boring and unlike in many other open world games you didn't really have stuff to pick up (like loot) to make fights and exploration more interesting. Hence why they clumsily implemented the durability system that wasn't even designed with Nintendo's favorite keyword, "fun", in mind. To me durability systems are pretty much bad and should be left out of games entirely. Either they're irrelevant to the point of even having them in the game (as in weapons, armor and such never break and the cost to repair is low) or it's front and center always forcing you to go back and repair, swap equipment out, etc. I can't think of a single game that did it right to the point where it only enhanced and never detracted, that it was well designed and implemented. Yet here comes Nintendo to try their hand at it and does so in one of the worst ways I've seen it in quite some time.
    I'm rambling a bit, but the point I'm making is that you seem to be making kneejerk reactions to people's complaints about a game (which are legit) you like and the result is you getting upset. Again I know there are trolls and shit, but your annoyances don't seem to be exclusive to just them. I mean you called people that don't like the weapon durability system in BotW for "whiners", which in other words means I'm one of those "whiners" as well now despite you making it pretty clear you don't even understand their complaints. In other words you think your view on a game is the right one and to make sure games you like sells that's the image you will present to others.

    But as I said, this discussion with you isn't really going anywhere and I've said my piece. It's way off-topic anyway.



  • @suplextrain said:

    To me durability systems are pretty much bad and should be left out of games entirely.

    That one line shows your bias and pretty much explains why you feel above as listed, but I'll still go into it.

    it's designed to force you to switch weapons

    That's one way to interpret it. Could also just be designed so you use your weapons as a resource and ration them out intelligently to fit your needs. No point in swinging your fancy greatsword at a little jelly monster, just bomb it or switch to some trash weapon to take it out.

    the UI for all of this is clunky

    No, it isn't. You just press D-Pad to quickly swap through them. There's even a sort functionality if you really want to order them most to least powerful for even more convenience. This is what I mean when people say things that simply are inaccurate, which makes me wonder just how long they even played the game. You can play the whole game without ever opening a menu to equip a weapon, because they autoequip when you pick them up too.

    To me it seems etc.

    Really doubt this wild theory of yours. Just seems like you're trying to justify hating it to yourself, but again that line about you hating all weapon durability in any game really shows your bias, so of course you're going to want to turn it into something worse than it is since you'd prefer to demonize the concept of weapon durability and hope no game implements it going forward.

    the point I'm making is that you seem to be making kneejerk reactions to people's complaints about a game (which are legit) you like and the result is you getting upset

    Kneejerk reactions? Nah, I've had plenty time to sit on this and evaluate whether or not it really is a problem or people are just blowing this whole thing out of proportion over their seething hatred of weapon durability systems as you yourself have proven you're a member of the mob against. Upset is a strong word, but I am disappointed people ignore the fun in the way the system works and instead choose to look at it in solely a negative light because big bad weapon durability!

    I like grabbing a spear off a cyclops' belt and then poking him with it. I like doing a spin attack with a big two handed weapon, then charging up a smash to break it over an enemy's head for massive damage. I like the scramble to steal an enemy's weapon at a camp, because you're out of weapons or just want to disarm them before the fight even begins. And you know what? The game showers you in so many weapons if you keep picking stuff up that at some point you get to be picky about exactly which ones you lug around. Hell, there's places on the map notable ones respawn if you really are so sad about losing one to durability over time. Not letting you kill everything in the game with one overpowered sword isn't a problem, and even that it half compromises with the player with in the form of the Master Sword.

    which in other words means I'm one of those "whiners" as well now

    I mean you admitted you hate weapon durability in every game so...

    you don't even understand their complaints

    I understand them. I simply see no value in them. In that wild theory you cooked up, you basically said the game would be worse without the weapon durability system yourself. That says alot. Deep down you know it's good. You just hate weapon durability.

    In other words you think your view on a game is the right one and to make sure games you like sells that's the image you will present to others.

    No, I think my own views are wrong, and I'm just trying to confuse people for the sake of it! Unless you're asking someone their views about a game that's "not for them", like 99% of people are going to say they think their views on a game are the right ones and they'd want the games they like to sell so they can keep playing more like them. You can stop trying to paint me as something malicious already just because we disagree.

    But you're right about how off-topic this has drifted, so guess I'm done too. You seem to have a strong disdain for the concept of hype entirely, ready to jump to vilify others for the heinous crime of beaming to others about the games they're enjoying. I can only guess this is because you've been burnt so many times by recommendations you didn't like as much as others, but hopefully it's taught you to properly research games before purchasing them now, rather than getting angry on the internet about things others are enjoying.



  • To get back on track, it seems relevant to add than I think Breath of the Wild is overrated. Though I think it's understandable why people praised and hyped it up so much. Things like hype and justification got involved and even Damiani got a ton of flak for this BotW score and the complaints he had, which is a pity.



  • @suplextrain said:

    even Damiani got a ton of flak for this BotW score and the complaints he had, which is a pity

    Agree on that, although he did overhype how alarming the framerate was/is. What a dumb example for that to become a meme for when there's been some seriously alarming cases of it in 2017.



  • Late to the party

    Tales of Symphonia, it isn't bad, but it isn't great, mostly just nostalgia goggles

    Earthbound, not bad, but just average, it isn't funny or witty, it's just Mother with a little more flavor due to the SNES' ability compared to the NES

    FF7, it is very good, but it gets put on a pedestal due to it being a lot of people's first jrpg

    Secret of Mana - It's fun to play with a friend, but on your own, nothing special, story is lacking (which a lot of stuff did get cut)



  • @Mbun said in Overrated/Underrated JRPGs:

    although he did overhype how alarming the framerate was/is.

    Could've been a problem for him. Could've run into frame drops more than most and he could be more sensitive to it. That said it wasn't the only problem he mentioned and I personally think there are more problems on the table.
    That said the game was hyped and scored so well that he got a lot of flak for giving it 4.5/5 (basically a 9/10), which doesn't make it remotely strange that people could find the game to be overrated when it was hyped and rated to the point where they attacked someone for giving it a 4.5/5. Like, damn.



  • @suplextrain i disagree, the whole game is designed around weapon durability, and i never really had the problem of never having weapons. they give it out like candy. It adds to the survival aspect of it.



  • @Mbun The patch fixed the framerate problems pretty much. except for the lost woods village area.

    at least its a non combat zone so you won't ever die from it.



  • @Bigdude1 said in Overrated/Underrated JRPGs:

    @suplextrain i disagree, the whole game is designed around weapon durability, and i never really had the problem of never having weapons. they give it out like candy. It adds to the survival aspect of it.

    Feel free to disagree, but that hardly changes the opinion of me and many others on the matter when you can break down the issues it causes from a design standpoint pretty easily (some of which I've already touched on, so I don't see any point in repeating myself).
    This also sidesteps the point I made anyway, which was that people got a little too crazy with the praise for BotW, which makes it pretty natural a good chunk of people would find it to be "overrated". Again I've already made examples and presented arguments, so feel free to read them.



  • @suplextrain He showed off lots of what he ran into, either in the review or on a stream, and it wasn't that bad aside from Korok Forest, which still isn't smooth today, but that's cause Nintendo got cute with it and made a bunch of Koroks pop out playfully from the foliage around you at all times, which is worth the frame dips to me in a zone you don't even fight in. Can understand why that bothers people though. And yea, I agree with Damiani on the dungeons and somewhat agree on the story, most just the ending fell flat with me. I've got no problem with the score he gave it, although I get why others do, sadly at some point it became more about BotW dethroning OoT so to speak, which is weird but again I understand why people wanted that to happen so badly as dumb of a fight as that is. Like the unspoken rule back at GT that if you liked a game in a series more than it's last iteration, you had to give it a higher score than that one got, even if you weren't the one who scored the previous one and thought that score was too high.

    @Bigdude1 Even prepatch, the only other area that consistently lagged, hilarious enough, was the very starting area when you walk down that ramp after coming down the cave. Funny they never noticed and optimized that in testing. I can see where it leaves a bad first impression for people, but anyone playing longer than twenty minutes should've noticed, even Day 1, that this wasn't the case with the majority of the game. Also apparently you could (still can I think?) get a tiny lag spike when big enemies drop their weapons, because the game puts physics on them as they drop, and if they hit Link on the way down they can do damage.



  • @suplextrain it just seems like cherry picking a flawed argument is all, it adds strategy to combat. It’s honestly ignorant to say weapon durability doesn’t belong in gaming . It just seems like your parroting Sterling.



  • @Bigdude1 said in Overrated/Underrated JRPGs:

    it just seems like cherry picking a flawed argument is all,

    Cherry picked? I could write and essay on all the problems I think BotW has but this is hardly the place and I doubt that would make you any more happy. The entire game crumbles under the quantity over quality design (a good chunk of the entire game), it has weak dungeons, weak bosses (especially the last ones), etc.
    The durability system is mentioned a lot because a lot of people were (rightly so) annoyed by it, especially since it's front and center, it's something you're forced to deal with throughout your entire playtime. Yet you almost belittle people that think it's a bad system which only makes you come off as a very biased fanboy. So if you're not, maybe rein it in a bit.

    It just seems like your parroting Sterling.

    I barely watch the guy (onl if someone links something of his to me, which is very rare), or any youtube for that matter. I prefer to think for myself. You probably know more about his problems with BotW than me since I frankly only know about the things I myself noticed.
    But again, another insult because I don't unanimously praise BotW? Yeah ok. So far you're awfully close to being thrown into my ignore list. Not because of the insults, but because you keep pushing the idea that you're not a reasonable person that offers interesting discussion. In other words, a waste of time. If that's the idea you want to sell people on, then keep doing what you do.



  • Do it then, I don’t care.



  • @Bigdude1 said in Overrated/Underrated JRPGs:

    Do it then, I don’t care.

    Just so confused why you're even talking to people if you don't plan on even discussing stuff with them. Oh well, suit yourself.



  • @suplextrain I am but your arguments are so flawed to the point where I don’t know if you played the game. Like if u complained about the dungeons or shrines yeah I get that . Even the implimentaion of Koroks. But saying weapon durability is a afterthought in design is silly considering you can tell they designed the whole game around it. I’m not blocking anyone you are. I’m not afraid of discussion.



  • I'm not huge into JRPGs in general, so I'll avoid pointing out ones "I didn't think were as good as most people though" (since that's most of them), but I do think it means that I can point out ones I think are underappreciated.

    Final Fantasy 8. Yes, the story has some pacing issues. The "orphanage scene" is dumb. The battle system is convoluted. But, despite all of these issues, FF8 is my favorite FF game. The art direction and music are some of the best in any RPG, the combat system is incredibly flexible and rewards creative play over brute force and grinding, and, while I may get flak for this one, Squall and Rinoa's romance is one of the most charming "couple stories" in games.

    Xenogears is the very definition of a flawed masterpiece. The random encounters are a slog, the platforming elements are atrocious, the characters are largely throwaway, the story is horrifically paced, and really the entire game is a mess of elements that fail to come together in any meaningful way. Despite all of these issues however, Xenogears is incredible for what it tries to do. It is the single most ambitious storyline I have ever seen in any "single entry" piece of media, period. The magnitude of its scale, the depth of its lore, the ingenuity of its themes....it really is something special. Playing the game will leave you walking away unsatisfied. But as you sit there thinking about it, you'll really gain an appreciate for all that they did, and all that they went for. If there is one game that deserves a proper remake, it is Xenogears. A finished Xenogears would be the pinnacle of storytelling in video games.



  • @Bigdude1 said in Overrated/Underrated JRPGs:

    I am but your arguments are so flawed to the point where I don’t know if you played the game.

    Sigh, fine I'll give you another shot (despite you completely lacking in any form of arguments despite you saying all of mine are "flawed" and the tired fanboy logical fallacy of accusing someone of not even having played the game). I mean all you do is basically write very short replies telling people that they're wrong and little else. That's not how you convince others or challenge your own ideas, just FYI. I mean your posts border on shitposting.

    Anyway, I did not start out to talking about weapon durability (feel free to read through the thread if you don't believe me). Mbun brought it up and started discussing the weapon durability in more detail. I then further discussed it since I replied to him. But as I've said the weapon durability system isn't the only problem the game has, again feel free to read my other posts again and then provide some counter arguments. You know, as in actually discussing it like you claim you want to do.
    It's not like you even grasp the point I'm making either, which is that there are countless things that can drag BotW down for a big number of people. Even if you can overlook most of these problems that doesn't everyone else can or that they're whiners or something because of it. Understand? While you might enjoy running around doing a bunch of short massively underwhelming shrines and letting dungeons take a quality hit for it, not everyone will be fine with it.
    One of the things I liked about the Zelda series is that it generally focused on quality over quantity, but BotW did the exact opposite. Not only that but series staples like equipment were massively downsized and took a back seat (things like hookshot, boomerang, hammer, rods, etc.) which were also used in combat. Again, you might not care but you refusing to understand that things like this matter to people and are legit problems for people is extremely close-minded.

    Now please surprise me by actually proving some arguments for this discussion you're apprantely not afraid of. Or don't and give me another short shitpost and cemeting the fact that I've just been wasting my time.
    Sorry if I'm sounding cynical but I really dislike taking people seriously, trying to discuss something and then only getting short insulting replies that basically just say that I'm wrong despite lacking any arguments to support it. That is what eventually drives me to ignore people.



  • @suplextrain said:

    I mean all you do is basically write very short replies telling people that they're wrong and little else. That's not how you convince others or challenge your own ideas, just FYI. I mean your posts border on shitposting.

    Honestly, I could apply this to most of your posts as well. Let's just stop dancing around and dig into it already. I don't wanna hear about the story, the dungeons, etc. Most people can agree those aspects are weak. Back up your accusations if you're going to make them.

    Feel free to disagree, but that hardly changes the opinion of me and many others on the matter when you can break down the issues it causes from a design standpoint pretty easily (some of which I've already touched on, so I don't see any point in repeating myself)

    I replied to the issues you listed before, and you immediately changed the subject and just generalized to say the game is overrated again, so either defend your points or drop it and stop trying to sully the character of anyone who disagrees with you.

    Just so confused why you're even talking to people if you don't plan on even discussing stuff with them.

    Again, this applies to yourself more than anyone. Stop trying to say anyone who dares defend it is a fanboy and refute the points people have made if your argument is so strong. If "the UI is clunky", which is total nonsense, is your best point I can see why you're avoiding the subject.

    I'd be fine dropping it, because as I said before you admitted you hate weapon durability period, so there's probably no possible way you're going to ever see it as a positive, but I'm not going to keep reading you accusing anyone who disagrees with you as some biased fanboy, acting like you're above them when you only to spew accusations and back none of it up when challenged. You're no better.



  • @Mbun said in Overrated/Underrated JRPGs:

    Honestly, I could apply this to most of your posts as well.

    Yeah no. I elaborate, extensively, while also providing several arguments. I also don't try and be as passive aggressive as possible. But whatever.

    @Mbun said in Overrated/Underrated JRPGs:

    I replied to the issues you listed before, and you immediately changed the subject and just generalized to say the game is overrated again, so either defend your points or drop it and stop trying to sully the character of anyone who disagrees with you.

    I already told you before you replied that it's going off-topic and completely pointless, yet both you and your friend Bigdude1 consistently try and push for this discussion on weapon durability in BotW of all things. Something you even brought up and talked about in the first place.
    It's like you're so desperate to prove something that you cherrypick this one thing. In my mind all this is = one big red herring. I don't see how it's relevant at all to either the topic or the points I made in regards to games being considered overrated and why others could think games are overrated. Care you share how this durability system is so extremely important? Why should I bother to really dig deep into the design aspects of this one thing? If you want to discuss this then create a thread for it, since I really don't see why this is relevant at all. Well that or go for PM. It's just shitting up the thread at this point.

    @Mbun said in Overrated/Underrated JRPGs:

    Again, this applies to yourself more than anyone. Stop trying to say anyone who dares defend it is a fanboy and refute the points people have made if your argument is so strong. If "the UI is clunky", which is total nonsense, is your best point I can see why you're avoiding the subject.

    It's like you delude yourself that you're open-minded yet you can't even be bothered to read what I say, nor try to understand me. I specifically pointed out your friend here for reasons I have already stated. Try reading next time. It's not about him disagreeing. Can you clearly not see he's not even trying to dicuss? How he clearly has big attitude problems and is being passive aggressive? Get off your high horse.
    I like to discuss things. But when I take people seriously, dedicate time and effort to try and reason with someone yet they give me short snide replies with 0 attempt at actually discussing things I frankly get annoyed. I find that offensive because I show them respect while they show me none. When I try and look past it and move on I keep getting goaded and belittled.

    If you really want to discuss this weapon durability thing then take it over PM. That applies to your friend Bigdude1 as well. Also please add why you think discussing this durability system is so extremely important, especially when (as I have stated prior) I don't even think it's the biggest issue with the game or even relevant at all to the point (about how games can be considered overrated by people) I made.
    Because I frankly don't want to shit this thread up anymore, so I won't reply to a single thing in regards to this ITT after this post. I will only reply ITT if it's on-topic.



  • @suplextrain said:

    Yeah no. I elaborate, extensively, while also providing several arguments.

    Do you? Because this big post of yours says otherwise.

    I also don't try and be as passive aggressive as possible.

    You're right. You're going beyond the human limits of passive aggressiveness while acting like you're not.

    your friend Bigdude1

    I don't think I've ever talked to this guy before, unless I just don't recognize the name.

    Something you even brought up and talked about in the first place.
    I don't see how it's relevant at all to either the topic or the points I made in regards to games being considered overrated and why others could think games are overrated

    I brought it up as part of a discussion on how people can easily hook onto one thing they hate in general that's not even really a problem in a specific case and use that as an excuse to denounce a game. If anything, your responses have helped prove that completely.

    cherrypick this one thing

    I believe I gave two examples originally. You just got upset over this one of the two.

    Care you share how this durability system is so extremely important?

    More than you apparently care to defend dumping on it, since you're cutting your loses and running now.

    It's like you delude yourself that you're open-minded yet you can't even be bothered to read what I say, nor try to understand me.

    I read what you said, considered each gripe, responded to said gripes, then got nothing in return but you moving on to find new things to gripe about instead, a cycle I don't exact desire repeating if you don't believe in your thoughts strongly enough to defend them when challenged. Kind of just makes me want to tune you out personally if I can't take what you say seriously and see you slinging mud at people you disagree with instead of standing by your views. You shouldn't fall back on personal attacks when your argument is picked apart.

    If you really want to discuss this weapon durability thing

    I already did, and I can't exactly continue without you backing up your opposing views of it, which you seem to have no intention of doing, so it's basically over. I'll just consider your lack of retort a withdrawal of your complaint about weapon durability for this particular game since you have made clear you have no intention of defending that view.