Super Smash Bros. Ultimate (Switch)





  • @hanabi said in Super Smash Bros. Ultimate (Switch):

    It's not true, I don't believe it at all. S-E's been way too stingy regarding Smash, there isn't even a single spirit in the game aside from the two for Cloud (that just use his Smash render instead of art from his original game like everyone else) and arguably the SMRPG characters.

    In fact I'm willing to take a bet right now that there will be literally zero S-E represntation in the entire first Fighters Pass for smash. It's a long-term bet, but I'm that confident right now.

    You might be right. Still a shame... there would so many great characters, i would love to see in Smash... Where is the goddess Lightning for example?

    Lightning



  • Taking a short break from smash but i wanna throw my some thoughts down as I'm about to clear world of light.

    I found world of light to be very addictive, creative and challenging. iv read a lot of complaints that it goes on for too long but id argue that's really only a complaint for reviewers. i feel world of light should be played more as event matches. a thing on the side to go to when you want to take a break from normal matches with friends. I when i needed a break from it, i did other matches(which most reviewers cant have the luxury of having).

    Classic mode is probably the best its ever been. the boss battles are so good! Though i wish there were a few more. good reliant standby.

    Haven't played a ton of online but it works for how I play. I'm not too serious of a player but I'd like to think I'm pretty good at it.

    Easily the best smash game for me. I don't know how long I'm gonna play it but i can say i got my moneys worth already.



  • @bigdude1 said:

    iv read a lot of complaints that it goes on for too long but id argue that's really only a complaint for reviewers. i feel world of light should be played more as event matches. a thing on the side to go to when you want to take a break from normal matches with friends.

    What you're describing is intentions for the Spirit Board. World of Light was definitely intended to be the meaty single player campaign for people to play through consecutively. Not as fast as possible as some reviewers had to, but it also wasn't meant to be spaced out over the period of a year or whatever as you're implying.

    Easily the best smash game for me

    I wish I could agree but due to all the missing features, a worse version of Event Smash turned into a campaign that weirdly doesn't match up to Subspace Emissary despite the low bar that is, and the choice to focus on bringing back old content over creating lots of new content Ultimate just doesn't blow me away like past Smash games have. Hate to perpetuate the meme, but Melee is probably still overall the best complete package. I'd say Brawl instead if the core combat gameplay of that wasn't imo the worst Smash has ever been. Smash 4 won't be super popular going forward, but it added quite a bit to the overall legacy and got really experimental, even if most of those experiments ended up failures.

    I'd still rather play Ultimate in most circumstances, because it has all the characters and they did a good job on the core versus gameplay of Smash as well as providing lots of good options to enhance that. Know it is a regional marketing thing, but I kind of wish the game's name had stuck to Special instead of Ultimate though, because Special is a much better way of describing this game. Sakurai being able to bring back every Fighter from past iterations, as well as most of the stages, and an insanely beefy library of music is indeed Special and commendable, but everything cut out to accommodate that feat, such as the Trophies with their gaming history blurbs, series staple Home Run Contest, the Stage Builder present since Brawl, etc. make the game feel short of Ultimate to me. Great entry in it's own right, but I can't see it as the Ultimate iteration of Smash when it is missing so much iconic Smash content.

    Could've used some extra development time to polish up parts of it like better online, more objectives in World of Light, a different race map for every character in Classic Mode on that one stage, etc. Also wish Sakurai would just let go his frustration that cutscenes will inevitably be viewed on Youtube and make more amazing ones like the Subspace Emissary had and everyone loved. Really don't want to spoil the ones in World of Light for anyone who hasn't seen them yet, but there's not many and the ending in particular just hangs without any explanation. Sakurai might be planning to continue from that point in the next Smash just as World of Light picks up where Subspace Emissary left off, but that campaign had more of a neatly wrapped ending than this has. The cutscenes throughout Subspace Emissary had such love and soul poured into them that really struck the core of what made Smash as a franchise special that only the intro for World of Light gets to briefly touch on.

    Ultimate is ultimate if you are brand new to the series or only care about the core local versus gameplay, but as a complete package it suffers from the sacrifices they made to facilitate that, as well as Nintendo's general current online situation. That's why I still think I have to give the nod to Melee over it, even though by this point I agree with everyone that Melee is super old, it is time to move on, and the core of Ultimate as well as the roster expansions since Melee together make enough of a feel good entry to finally put Melee to bed with.



  • @mbun im not implying any of that. i was saying that when a reviewer reviews a game he has to make a deadline. so obviously the format doest hold up when you got a week to beat the game when most of us would probably take longer than that. and i doubt anyone would want to play thirty hour singleplayer game in just a few sittings

    its also way more varied then event matches so i cant agree with anything from the top part on . the core gameplay is very sound so idk what you are talking about (maybe expand on this point because you seemed to just gloss over it like its some general census). maybe you are putting melee on a pedestal too much?



  • here i'll just say why melee is inferior rather than you just using what melee has as examples why its better

    Adventure mode is really short, not a real story. Event matches are fun but arent as many.

    enemy ai is way worse

    character count is way smaller

    unlocking characters are a big chore compared to others in the series.

    very few bosses.

    less stages/songs/items

    it makes the few modes that are just passing modes seem insignificant to me. like i liked me some home run contest and shit but i only did it cause there wasnt anything else.



  • @bigdude1 said:

    i doubt anyone would want to play thirty hour singleplayer game in just a few sittings

    People who were excited to play the campaign at launch that was marketed as a campaign like any other game that comes out and people want to play to credits?

    its also way more varied then event matches

    Except it isn't. Every single objective is beating the opponent through a normal or Stamina battle. Only the overworld map is interesting, but even the puzzles there are few and far between.

    the core gameplay is very sound so idk what you are talking about

    I said Ultimate's core gameplay was sound.

    maybe you are putting melee on a pedestal too much?

    Not really. I don't want to still think Melee is the best overall package, but they've yet to make a Smash game without some kind of problem since it. Brawl had bad core gameplay and was super unbalanced. Also as great as the Sub Space Emissary cutscenes are, the mode itself isn't very fun to play. Smash 4 had no good single player modes whatsoever and some of the worst menus of the series. Plus you had to buy 2 games to get all the content for it, and Smash was never meant for a handheld, so the frantic action caused my circle pad on my 3DS to break from playing it. Ultimate has lots of series staple content cut out and the majority of the content it does have is just carried over from past versions with very little significant new stuff. Nobody is going to care about Spirits after beating World of Light when they don't even have history blurbs and are just PNGs. Melee is the only one that remains a full package from launch that only improved the franchise without taking away.

    Adventure mode is really short, not a real story

    Was before Smash games had stories like they do now, and despite World of Light being 30 hours, it still really doesn't have a story beyond the opening cutscene. Even the ending is nothing after you spent 30 hours getting there.

    enemy ai is way worse

    It is still pretty good, and that's never been a big deal anyways when you're mostly going to be playing against other real people. Ultimate should be commended for its AI though yes.

    character count is way smaller

    Well yeah, it is only the second game in the series, but Smash 64 only had 8 characters whereas Melee expanded to 26. That's almost 20 new characters. That's beefy, and more importantly they're all pretty well balanced, even in a time before when they could balance patch it post launch.

    unlocking characters are a big chore compared to others in the series

    You just play the different modes of the game and get them. It only sucked for tournaments, but there were easily ways around that like just copying memory card saves over.

    very few bosses

    Series wasn't known for that yet, and it emphasized your matches against the other Fighters more than big extra bosses. Ultimate's bosses, which I won't go into here cause spoilers, are boring picks anyways for the most part.

    less stages/songs/items

    Duh, again it is only the second entry in the series. That's really not a fair complaint when it still has many more of each of these things over the game that came before it. Melee had 29 stages versus 64's 9 stages and 26 of them were brand new. Smash 64 had 45 music tracks in Sound Test. Melee had over 80. Smash 64 had 20 items while Melee had 35 if I counted right. Either way it had more of everything.

    it makes the few modes that are just passing modes seem insignificant to me

    ??? I mean the versus is always the core of the game, and again it had many more modes than the game before it. Feel like you're judging it too harshly based on what we have now. By your logic, every old entry of any game sucks in comparison to the new ones, because they're all bound to have less general stuff overall.



  • @mbun In fairness, you can't really have it both ways where one is able to critique Ultimate with things you think Melee did better but then say that by Melee being the second entry, it can't be critised for it's lack of bosses, charactes, stages etc.

    I never played Melee so I can't comment but I think the points brought up are pretty fair.



  • As for Smash, I played the Wii version and could not get into it at all. I was only playing it by myself and none of my friends were interested in it. I never really understood it so I stopped playing pretty quickly.

    However I decided to hold onto my pre order of Ultimate as I have a bunch of friends who are into the series (and it has Snake :D ). So far I haven't played with friends so everything I've done is single player related.

    So I finally at least understand how Smash works now which is more than I can say before the release. I've cleared out classic mode with about 40 or so characters and I'm enjoying doing that as it's fun to unlock a character and run through classic mode again with a different character. That said I kinda find the format of it to be pretty disappointing. This may be due to some of the early fights where it ended with a fight against boss Bowser or Ganon and I thought those were so cool but then you realise that's actually pretty rare and you'll spend most of your time fighting some hands. Realistically once I unlock every character I don't know if I'll play more of Classic mode.

    As for World of Light, I've sunk far less time into this and really don't know how I feel about it. I think we've been kinda spoiled by story driven fighting games as I find the motivation to progress in this to be really lacking for me. I did about 3 fights one day and just found it really boring having to deal with the spirit cards. But then another day I played for maybe an hour or so and at least got into messing around with the cards a bit more. I don't know really.. I'm just finding it a bit of a very mixed bag that I don't think will hold my interest too much.

    That may all come across as negative but I'm actually mostly enjoying my time with the game, far more than the Wii version, and I'm really looking forward to playing with friends.

    Oh, just an extra. my only concern with friends is how chaotic the game can get. A few times it zooms out and I completely lost track of my character.


  • Banned

    As much as I adore Melee, it does tend to get put on a pedestal by the Smash community.



  • @tokeeffe9 said:

    In fairness, you can't really have it both ways where one is able to critique Ultimate with things you think Melee did better but then say that by Melee being the second entry, it can't be critised for it's lack of bosses, charactes, stages etc.

    I'm arguing that because of its place in the series and how much new it added for said place, it did more overall than Ultimate is doing, as well as had the stronger package overall. Of course it doesn't have 100 stages and 74 characters and all that, but if you really want to go there, the number of NEW stages or NEW characters in Ultimate compared to older entries is pretty damn weak, and that's before accounting for everything cut out to give us stuff that's not a better replacement. Spirits suck compared to Trophies, no matter how many of them there are.

    There's an acceptable level of forgiveness you have to account for when dealing with older entries of a franchise. I love Mario 3 and the amazing level design holds up, but you wouldn't penalize it for the game having weird glitches sometimes and say New Super Mario Bros. is a better game because it doesn't have those. It was just as enjoyable at time of release despite them, totally understandable they exist given the platform it came out on and how vast that game is for it, and obviously if the same game came out today those problems aren't design flaws, but rather era of release flaws, so they wouldn't even exist. If Melee came out today, it'd have tons of characters and stages and items and music, because at the time it came out, it had a ton of all that stuff compared to the previous entry.

    @El-Shmiablo That's why I've tried to clearly vocalize why I feel this way rather than just being like "You'll never top Melee's combat!" etc. I never got into all the crazy stuff you can potentially do in Melee, so it is about on par with Ultimate for me from a combat standpoint alone, actually I'd give the slight nod to Ultimate for having Stage Morph and Smashdown and such, except you can't use any of that stuff online. I'd rather have Adventure Mode, Break the Targets, Home Run Contest, Event Smash, and Trophies than World of Light and Spirits, two things you're pretty much forever done with after playing through World of Light once. And as people have said before, World of Light gets extremely repetitive as you go on. Should've been less fights with a higher quality of each fight and varied objectives beyond stock and stamina battles sometimes with a time limit.



  • @mbun

    People who were excited to play the campaign at launch that was marketed as a campaign like any other game that comes out and people want to play to credits?

    that still doesnt address the point i made. they are artificially forced to kinda rush through it rather than playing at your own leisure. you arent gonna play this game like that. you take breaks as most people should playing video games. smash bros in general is really taxing on the eyes and brain so i cant imagine playing it for long duration.

    Except it isn't. Every single objective is beating the opponent through a normal or Stamina battle. Only the overworld map is interesting, but even the puzzles there are few and far between.

    did you even play the game? thats flat out false.

    there are way more variables and modifiers. are you just trying to lie to make it look worse?

    Not really. I don't want to still think Melee is the best overall package, but they've yet to make a Smash game without some kind of problem since it. Brawl had bad core gameplay and was super unbalanced. Also as great as the Sub Space Emissary cutscenes are, the mode itself isn't very fun to play. Smash 4 had no good single player modes whatsoever and some of the worst menus of the series. Plus you had to buy 2 games to get all the content for it, and Smash was never meant for a handheld, so the frantic action caused my circle pad on my 3DS to break from playing it. Ultimate has lots of series staple content cut out and the majority of the content it does have is just carried over from past versions with very little significant new stuff. Nobody is going to care about Spirits after beating World of Light when they don't even have history blurbs and are just PNGs. Melee is the only one that remains a full package from launch that only improved the franchise without taking away.

    that doesnt work the other way though. you are only framing it as it before the others if these came out in different order it would appear a different way. melee doesnt have a lot of what makes Ultimate better. trophies arent as interesting as you make them, neither is a lot of the other modes. if you put the time elapsed in all these modes combined they dont add up to what i put in world of light, which was much more varied

    It is still pretty good, and that's never been a big deal anyways when you're mostly going to be playing against other real people. Ultimate should be commended for its AI though yes.

    not true you cant complain about the lack of modes and then say but people dont play singleplayer with ai anyway

    Series wasn't known for that yet, and it emphasized your matches against the other Fighters more than big extra bosses. Ultimate's bosses, which I won't go into here cause spoilers, are boring picks anyways for the most part.
    Series wasn't known for that yet, and it emphasized your matches against the other Fighters more than big extra bosses. Ultimate's bosses, which I won't go into here cause spoilers, are boring picks anyways for the most part.

    thats why its a improvement! thats what you dont seem to get. It is inferior in that way. you only get 2 hands. compare it to this that has almost 10 if i remember right.

    ??? I mean the versus is always the core of the game, and again it had many more modes than the game before it. Feel like you're judging it too harshly based on what we have now. By your logic, every old entry of any game sucks in comparison to the new ones, because they're all bound to have less general stuff overall.

    im not judging it too harshly, its a great game. but we have gotten better products. you are even kinda admitting that this game is a better game based on this verbiage alone.

    It holds up but its not betterl.



  • @mbun thats not how you said it though. you said melee is a overall better package.

    what you are saying now is that melee is a bigger step up from 1 than Ultimate is for melee.

    which is 2 different arguments



  • @mbun how far have you gotten in world of light?

    there are varied objectives! you have beat this character while other character defends. you have assist trophies used that really change the battles entirely . there are tons of examples of really creative and unique fights that are tailored to feel like the character or game the character is from.



  • @bigdude1 said:

    you arent gonna play this game like that. you take breaks as most people should playing video games

    All my friends wanted to beat it at launch before they got spoiled on anything. Also they were enjoying it, so they kept playing it the week of launch until they were done. Wasn't what I'd consider rushing.

    smash bros in general is really taxing on the eyes and brain so i cant imagine playing it for long duration

    Never heard that before. Doesn't bother me. Maybe because I've been playing it since N64 with really long play sessions with friends in the Melee days? We used to legit play out 99 stock games with each other, only with small snack or bathroom breaks.

    did you even play the game? thats flat out false.
    there are way more variables and modifiers. are you just trying to lie to make it look worse?

    It isn't though. Every match is some form of that. The only variables and modifiers you're referring to are the opponents gaining a buff, the player gaining a debuff, or some stage hazard like electric floor or heavy wind, most of which you can disable through having the appropriate immunity Spirit. Despite modifiers, every objective is to beat your opponent. There's no "survive 3 minutes" or "simply defend this CPU for this long" or "gather more food than your opponent" or "KO your opponent with a soccer ball" or anything of that sort. Everything is just a stock or stamina battle with some modifiers slapped on. Past Smash games had Event Battles that had other objectives.

    that doesnt work the other way though. you are only framing it as it before the others if these came out in different order it would appear a different way

    Yeah, we would've freaked the hell out if the jump from Smash 64 to Melee was 74 characters and 100 stages. It would've been world shattering at the time for that amount to be added, and realistically it probably wouldn't have even been able to fit on a single disc back then.

    melee doesnt have a lot of what makes Ultimate better

    Like? Don't say bigger roster and stages as we'd be talking in circles and have already covered that.

    trophies arent as interesting as you make them

    They're better than Spirits. They're 3D models you can rotate and admire from different angles, most importantly ones that include historical information about the character being displayed with a blurb informing the person why they should care about it at all. Spirits are literally just PNGs of previous assets, not even new art of beloved characters, old PNGs that were laying around with absolutely no blurb attached to them to inform the player at all why they should care or the character's significance at all. It doesn't matter if there's 10X as many of them when they're this worthless, outside World of Light where they possess niche value for arbitrary modifiers placed on them that work as equipment for the RPG adventure that mode is, despite Smash being a Fighting (or Party if you prefer) game.

    neither is a lot of the other modes
    if you put the time elapsed in all these modes combined they dont add up to what i put in world of light, which was much more varied

    That's subjective, and no. World of Light is bloated. Most reviews have mentioned this. It goes on long enough to wear out its welcome with all the fights just blending together with the occasional memorable one sneaking in, because it isn't as varied as it should be and you're just spamming stock and stamina battles for 30 hours to get Spirits to make fighting other Spirits easier by taking away the exact thing that makes the battle challenging.

    you cant complain about the lack of modes and then say but people dont play singleplayer with ai anyway

    I didn't say that. I said the AI for Melee is good enough to provide a challenge while playing single player while Ultimate just has exceptional AI people can actually learn from. That said, people are still finding ways to cheese Ultimate's AI and break it to speedrun World of Light already, but remember before when I was talking about eras? Our era hasn't even cracked amazing video game AI yet, so people still being able to cheese it is forgivable. The important thing is it mostly works under most circumstances.

    thats why its a improvement! thats what you dont seem to get. It is inferior in that way.

    Smash Ultimate has 10 true bosses, obviously not counting stage hazards, with 6 of them being new. Brawl, which established bosses in a more common ground through introducing the first beefy single player mode to Smash also had 10 total, but 8 of them were new which is higher than Ultimate. Worth noting Smash 4 lacking a good single player campaign only had like 3 with only 1 being new, even if that 1 new boss had many forms and was way more in depth than any other Smash bosses, including the World of Light ones.

    Of those 10 bosses in Ultimate, I enjoyed 6 of them, 4 being new ones to Ultimate. The rest felt like filler. Of the 4 new ones I enjoyed, only 1 of them really stood out to me and would be something I'd miss if it didn't come back in future iterations. I'll just say so you know who that is that they're the one who is also an assist trophy. The kind of Smash bosses that appeared in Sub Space Emissary and such have never been content I value highly in Smash. Most feel super throwaway or just outright annoying. I'd also argue Sub Space Emissary made more creative choices for the bosses it picked than World of Light, although admittedly Tabuu is stupid and much worse than World of Light's Final Boss. Either way, when most feel like filler, then I don't value them as improvements and don't see Melee as inferior for missing them.

    you only get 2 hands.

    64 only had Master Hand. Melee introduced Crazy Hand on top of bringing back Master Hand. Also, you forgot Giga Bowser, which was a secret boss reward for getting far enough in Event Smash in Melee. Adventure Mode wasn't 30 hours, and Smash hadn't grown to the point of incorporating campaigns that take hours to clear into the Fighting (or Party) game yet, so the focus was kept on facing the other Fighters, not these larger than life bosses. When I play Melee, I don't think to myself "I sure do wish I could fight Duon or Dracula right now to mix it up." They wouldn't really fit the structure of Melee, and neither would a World of Light End Boss style boss. I'd actually rather just have Smash 4's Master Core if I could add something to Melee from that area, and that's a boss and style that doesn't appear in Ultimate.

    we have gotten better products
    you are even kinda admitting that this game is a better game based on this verbiage alone

    Still disagree. We have gotten better aspects in new products, but nothing as a whole package for its time has been better than Melee was as a whole package for its time. And I'm only wording it like that since you're bringing unrealistic expectations into this for Melee based on the luxury Smash Ultimate has had of building on all that 64, Melee, Brawl, and Smash 4 have done before it.

    what you are saying now is that melee is a bigger step up from 1 than Ultimate is for melee
    which is 2 different arguments

    No, I'm still sticking to Melee is an overall better package, but I had to clause it for considerations of when it came out when you're arguing against that with things that aren't based around the design of Melee but rather based around when it came out.

    how far have you gotten in world of light?

    100% Haven't touched NG+ and probably won't. I love NG+ in games usually, but like I said above I think for World of Light's structure it would've been better if you could just immediately replay Spirit fights after beating them without having to replay through World of Light to get back to it every time you want to play that fight again since it is so tediously long. Now Classic Mode, if there's a fight in there, I don't mind replaying a character's whole set of fights to get to it, because I know I can get back to it in under 30 minutes easily.

    there are varied objectives! you have beat this character while other character defends

    You're still just beating the character. You're not beating them with a Ray Gun. You're not racing to get the Final Smash first. You're not trying to kill their Assist Trophies with your Assist Trophies. You're not both starting at 250% while food keeps spawning and both of you are trying to get to 0% first. It is always about beating your opponent in an stock or stamina battle with some little modifiers attached on both sides.

    there are tons of examples of really creative and unique fights that are tailored to feel like the character or game the character is from

    It works alright for awhile and some like the Dr. Wily fight really shine through, but since the objective is always just beating your opponent then after awhile they all just blend together and you're just constantly auto equipping the Spirits that negate whatever makes the fight hard and breezing through 90% of them, which come off as pure filler. Maybe if these Spirit PNGs had blurbs to read about their character's history the player could understand how cool the fights are setup, but they don't, so unless you're a Bloodworth the majority of that shit flies over your head anyways or you simply don't care.



  • @mbun

    You seem to be going back and forth on your own comments. if you take melee out of its time frame its simply overall inferior, which is the whole point of my statement.

    I think its pretty clear this is the best package so far and i stand by my statements on world of light.
    Its got tons of variety, and lots of actual challenge.

    the way you pick and choose what is important and what isnt, is a masters thesis of mental gymnastics. what is important in one point is very important to you in another.

    bringing up reviews about it being bloated isnt a counter point to my assertion that world of light isnt something to be played in a very short amount of time. Most people don't play games like that. usually if you get fatigued you do something else. i only mention eye strain because iv played very long sessions of smash since 64 it requires a lot of eye movement and iv heard this from a lot of people.



  • @bigdude1 said:

    You seem to be going back and forth on your own comments.

    Except I'm not.

    if you take melee out of its time frame its simply overall inferior

    If you take ANY older game in a series out of its time frame it will almost always be "inferior" to the newer entry in the series. That's not even worth discussing, because if we went by that logic, the newest entry is always the best, and that makes for super boring discussion and discredits the legacy and work of the older entry in the series simply for not existing furthest into the future.

    I think its pretty clear this is the best package so far

    Still disagree. It has strengths and weaknesses, and I think overall the design and choices of Melee offers more.

    Its got tons of variety

    Variety in fighter roster, stage selection, other stuff the franchise has built up over time. sure, but World of Light doesn't possess the variety it needs to stay interesting through the whole 20-30 hours it takes to get through. Also, you're entire argument here is that if you take breaks and get variety elsewhere it doesn't matter that World of Light lacks variety. You saying breaks are the crucial key to staying interested in it means it isn't that interesting.

    the way you pick and choose what is important and what isnt, is a masters thesis of mental gymnastics

    No, it just means we value different things in our Smash games. You really like bosses you'll probably only play against til you beat once who usually aren't even that interesting and aren't even fresh and interesting forms of familiar characters like Giga Bowser was back in Melee, and I prefer the bosses like Master Hand who you'll fight multiple times and have many more attack patterns with each fight playing out differently instead of being memorize the few attack patterns they spam. I prefer variety through stuff like Break the Targets, Home Run Contest, and being able to rotate Trophies and read gaming history over a watered down Event Smash campaign that replaces Trophies with wiggling reused asset PNGs that have no history attached.

    bringing up reviews about it being bloated isnt a counter point to my assertion that world of light isnt something to be played in a very short amount of time.

    You think only critics feel this way? I've heard many normal players also echo this statement. I brought it up to lend weight that many of us feel this way about World of Light.

    Most people don't play games like that.

    Who are these most people? Cause even the people who weren't reviewing it at EZA were bingeing Ultimate after launch, because they were excited to play it. Most my friends and I also hit it hard right around launch, because we wanted to see the new content it had. I think most general fans have done this. Maybe people who are usually outside the sphere of Smash and only hopped in because it is a game everyone else is hyping up are these most people you're referring to, but I'd definitely judge the quality of the franchise off the fan reception over newcomer reception. Chasing newcomer reception often leads to diminishing quality of franchises. The Wii era of Nintendo was nothing but that, and it frustrated the devs and long term fans alike.

    i only mention eye strain because iv played very long sessions of smash since 64 it requires a lot of eye movement and iv heard this from a lot of people.

    Are you sitting too close to the tv or something? If you're a good distance away the action will always stay in your view, and you won't have to be darting your eyes around that much. Maybe if you were spamming 8 player matches with items I could see how it'd be a struggle to keep up with where you are, but I think most players can deal with 4 player matches and less once they've played Smash for a little while. Hell, right after release my friends got together to celebrate the new game and we played like 6-7 hours straight of 4 player FFAs, all while drinking no less, and none of us had a problem keeping up or felt fatigued by the end of it. Just was getting late, so we stopped for the night. It was really similar to how we'd play long sessions back in the day with Melee too. Definitely had games like Splatoon tire me out before, but Smash isn't one of them.

    We clearly have different interests and experiences with these games, and it is fine if you want to try and argue for why Ultimate is better overall in your eyes and attempt convincing me to see your side, but you can't just dismiss how I feel about the games and tell me I'm wrong and claim everyone else plays it a certain way and force me to agree with what you think. If you can't sway me based on the merits of Ultimate, we're simply going to continue to disagree. I'm not the type to just go along with what you're saying, because you're telling me I'm wrong if you can't show me in a satisfactory manner how I'm wrong in a way that makes sense more than "newer game is naturally better".



  • @mbun said in Super Smash Bros. Ultimate (Switch):

    If you take ANY older game in a series out of its time frame it will almost always be "inferior" to the newer entry in the series. That's not even worth discussing, because if we went by that logic, the newest entry is always the best, and that makes for super boring discussion and discredits the legacy and work of the older entry in the series simply for not existing furthest into the future.

    Without going too far off topic, I don't agree with this at all. It's why we still see a lot of people/sites ranking the best in a series. I can think of several games where I don't feel like the latest is the best in that series.



  • @tokeeffe9 said:

    I don't agree with this at all. It's why we still see a lot of people/sites ranking the best in a series. I can think of several games where I don't feel like the latest is the best in that series.

    We're specifically talking about the parts of games where a later entry in the series builds on the work of earlier entries. Of course someone could prefer an older Uncharted game for preferring that one's story leading to ranking it higher, and it is fair to praise the newest Uncharted game for any refinements it made to the game mechanics since the entry before it upon release, but if you're fairly comparing Uncharted 2 to Uncharted 4 and your argument for why 2 is so much worse is that they don't possess those refinements 4 only got from the work of 3 and 2 itself, that's not a fair argument for why 4 is better. That just saying of course the newest one is best, because it gets everything 2 and 3 did and gets to add more to it. There's also exceptions even within games of a series like Pokemon games, where GameFreak often does not bring back some improvements from previous entries to the newest one leading to additional reasons to value an old one over a new one outside of all the other reasons one could prefer an older game. Then there's games more like Final Fantasy where most the games try to be deliberately different from one another, easily leading to a wide split between favorites amount fans, because that weight of just building up over time isn't as present to sway most people towards newer entries.

    These are both Smash games that increased their roster size, stage selection, and music library. Ultimate only has more of this content being discussed, because the ground work for specifically that content was laid out during 64, Melee, Brawl, and Smash 4. This specific new to Ultimate content doesn't even match up to the new to Melee content going from 64 to Melee. If Melee was made today, it'd have the same luxury of getting to pull things from Brawl, Smash 4, and hypothetically Ultimate if we're just flipping them in the timelines, as well as would be developed for a medium that allows a larger filesize on it accommodating that extra amount of content.

    That's why when comparing the two you have to cut Melee some slack on that front. It doesn't lack those things out of worse game design or lazier devs at the time but instead because of when it was developed and released. Ultimate having that stuff is great, but it shouldn't be this huge bonus on Ultimate's end if you're fairly comparing the two. If all that was new to Ultimate, not mostly work from past games brought back into it, and it exceeded the amount Melee added, then that would be an argument for why Ultimate is better. Where we actually are though Melee added more new content than Ultimate on these fronts, so if we're being fair, Melee should get the credit here instead.



  • Just finished World of Light. It feels like it goes on forever at times (no joke my final completion time is like 26 and a half hours or something, granted I went for the hundo) but whenever you're in a portal and doing a section that's clearly themed around a specific game's world it's really cool, and the bosses are all excellent. Overall I had a good time, though I'm not looking forward to having to redo that final boss for one of the challenges on the board.