Super Smash Bros. Ultimate (Switch)



  • @mbun thats not how you said it though. you said melee is a overall better package.

    what you are saying now is that melee is a bigger step up from 1 than Ultimate is for melee.

    which is 2 different arguments



  • @mbun how far have you gotten in world of light?

    there are varied objectives! you have beat this character while other character defends. you have assist trophies used that really change the battles entirely . there are tons of examples of really creative and unique fights that are tailored to feel like the character or game the character is from.



  • @bigdude1 said:

    you arent gonna play this game like that. you take breaks as most people should playing video games

    All my friends wanted to beat it at launch before they got spoiled on anything. Also they were enjoying it, so they kept playing it the week of launch until they were done. Wasn't what I'd consider rushing.

    smash bros in general is really taxing on the eyes and brain so i cant imagine playing it for long duration

    Never heard that before. Doesn't bother me. Maybe because I've been playing it since N64 with really long play sessions with friends in the Melee days? We used to legit play out 99 stock games with each other, only with small snack or bathroom breaks.

    did you even play the game? thats flat out false.
    there are way more variables and modifiers. are you just trying to lie to make it look worse?

    It isn't though. Every match is some form of that. The only variables and modifiers you're referring to are the opponents gaining a buff, the player gaining a debuff, or some stage hazard like electric floor or heavy wind, most of which you can disable through having the appropriate immunity Spirit. Despite modifiers, every objective is to beat your opponent. There's no "survive 3 minutes" or "simply defend this CPU for this long" or "gather more food than your opponent" or "KO your opponent with a soccer ball" or anything of that sort. Everything is just a stock or stamina battle with some modifiers slapped on. Past Smash games had Event Battles that had other objectives.

    that doesnt work the other way though. you are only framing it as it before the others if these came out in different order it would appear a different way

    Yeah, we would've freaked the hell out if the jump from Smash 64 to Melee was 74 characters and 100 stages. It would've been world shattering at the time for that amount to be added, and realistically it probably wouldn't have even been able to fit on a single disc back then.

    melee doesnt have a lot of what makes Ultimate better

    Like? Don't say bigger roster and stages as we'd be talking in circles and have already covered that.

    trophies arent as interesting as you make them

    They're better than Spirits. They're 3D models you can rotate and admire from different angles, most importantly ones that include historical information about the character being displayed with a blurb informing the person why they should care about it at all. Spirits are literally just PNGs of previous assets, not even new art of beloved characters, old PNGs that were laying around with absolutely no blurb attached to them to inform the player at all why they should care or the character's significance at all. It doesn't matter if there's 10X as many of them when they're this worthless, outside World of Light where they possess niche value for arbitrary modifiers placed on them that work as equipment for the RPG adventure that mode is, despite Smash being a Fighting (or Party if you prefer) game.

    neither is a lot of the other modes
    if you put the time elapsed in all these modes combined they dont add up to what i put in world of light, which was much more varied

    That's subjective, and no. World of Light is bloated. Most reviews have mentioned this. It goes on long enough to wear out its welcome with all the fights just blending together with the occasional memorable one sneaking in, because it isn't as varied as it should be and you're just spamming stock and stamina battles for 30 hours to get Spirits to make fighting other Spirits easier by taking away the exact thing that makes the battle challenging.

    you cant complain about the lack of modes and then say but people dont play singleplayer with ai anyway

    I didn't say that. I said the AI for Melee is good enough to provide a challenge while playing single player while Ultimate just has exceptional AI people can actually learn from. That said, people are still finding ways to cheese Ultimate's AI and break it to speedrun World of Light already, but remember before when I was talking about eras? Our era hasn't even cracked amazing video game AI yet, so people still being able to cheese it is forgivable. The important thing is it mostly works under most circumstances.

    thats why its a improvement! thats what you dont seem to get. It is inferior in that way.

    Smash Ultimate has 10 true bosses, obviously not counting stage hazards, with 6 of them being new. Brawl, which established bosses in a more common ground through introducing the first beefy single player mode to Smash also had 10 total, but 8 of them were new which is higher than Ultimate. Worth noting Smash 4 lacking a good single player campaign only had like 3 with only 1 being new, even if that 1 new boss had many forms and was way more in depth than any other Smash bosses, including the World of Light ones.

    Of those 10 bosses in Ultimate, I enjoyed 6 of them, 4 being new ones to Ultimate. The rest felt like filler. Of the 4 new ones I enjoyed, only 1 of them really stood out to me and would be something I'd miss if it didn't come back in future iterations. I'll just say so you know who that is that they're the one who is also an assist trophy. The kind of Smash bosses that appeared in Sub Space Emissary and such have never been content I value highly in Smash. Most feel super throwaway or just outright annoying. I'd also argue Sub Space Emissary made more creative choices for the bosses it picked than World of Light, although admittedly Tabuu is stupid and much worse than World of Light's Final Boss. Either way, when most feel like filler, then I don't value them as improvements and don't see Melee as inferior for missing them.

    you only get 2 hands.

    64 only had Master Hand. Melee introduced Crazy Hand on top of bringing back Master Hand. Also, you forgot Giga Bowser, which was a secret boss reward for getting far enough in Event Smash in Melee. Adventure Mode wasn't 30 hours, and Smash hadn't grown to the point of incorporating campaigns that take hours to clear into the Fighting (or Party) game yet, so the focus was kept on facing the other Fighters, not these larger than life bosses. When I play Melee, I don't think to myself "I sure do wish I could fight Duon or Dracula right now to mix it up." They wouldn't really fit the structure of Melee, and neither would a World of Light End Boss style boss. I'd actually rather just have Smash 4's Master Core if I could add something to Melee from that area, and that's a boss and style that doesn't appear in Ultimate.

    we have gotten better products
    you are even kinda admitting that this game is a better game based on this verbiage alone

    Still disagree. We have gotten better aspects in new products, but nothing as a whole package for its time has been better than Melee was as a whole package for its time. And I'm only wording it like that since you're bringing unrealistic expectations into this for Melee based on the luxury Smash Ultimate has had of building on all that 64, Melee, Brawl, and Smash 4 have done before it.

    what you are saying now is that melee is a bigger step up from 1 than Ultimate is for melee
    which is 2 different arguments

    No, I'm still sticking to Melee is an overall better package, but I had to clause it for considerations of when it came out when you're arguing against that with things that aren't based around the design of Melee but rather based around when it came out.

    how far have you gotten in world of light?

    100% Haven't touched NG+ and probably won't. I love NG+ in games usually, but like I said above I think for World of Light's structure it would've been better if you could just immediately replay Spirit fights after beating them without having to replay through World of Light to get back to it every time you want to play that fight again since it is so tediously long. Now Classic Mode, if there's a fight in there, I don't mind replaying a character's whole set of fights to get to it, because I know I can get back to it in under 30 minutes easily.

    there are varied objectives! you have beat this character while other character defends

    You're still just beating the character. You're not beating them with a Ray Gun. You're not racing to get the Final Smash first. You're not trying to kill their Assist Trophies with your Assist Trophies. You're not both starting at 250% while food keeps spawning and both of you are trying to get to 0% first. It is always about beating your opponent in an stock or stamina battle with some little modifiers attached on both sides.

    there are tons of examples of really creative and unique fights that are tailored to feel like the character or game the character is from

    It works alright for awhile and some like the Dr. Wily fight really shine through, but since the objective is always just beating your opponent then after awhile they all just blend together and you're just constantly auto equipping the Spirits that negate whatever makes the fight hard and breezing through 90% of them, which come off as pure filler. Maybe if these Spirit PNGs had blurbs to read about their character's history the player could understand how cool the fights are setup, but they don't, so unless you're a Bloodworth the majority of that shit flies over your head anyways or you simply don't care.



  • @mbun

    You seem to be going back and forth on your own comments. if you take melee out of its time frame its simply overall inferior, which is the whole point of my statement.

    I think its pretty clear this is the best package so far and i stand by my statements on world of light.
    Its got tons of variety, and lots of actual challenge.

    the way you pick and choose what is important and what isnt, is a masters thesis of mental gymnastics. what is important in one point is very important to you in another.

    bringing up reviews about it being bloated isnt a counter point to my assertion that world of light isnt something to be played in a very short amount of time. Most people don't play games like that. usually if you get fatigued you do something else. i only mention eye strain because iv played very long sessions of smash since 64 it requires a lot of eye movement and iv heard this from a lot of people.



  • @bigdude1 said:

    You seem to be going back and forth on your own comments.

    Except I'm not.

    if you take melee out of its time frame its simply overall inferior

    If you take ANY older game in a series out of its time frame it will almost always be "inferior" to the newer entry in the series. That's not even worth discussing, because if we went by that logic, the newest entry is always the best, and that makes for super boring discussion and discredits the legacy and work of the older entry in the series simply for not existing furthest into the future.

    I think its pretty clear this is the best package so far

    Still disagree. It has strengths and weaknesses, and I think overall the design and choices of Melee offers more.

    Its got tons of variety

    Variety in fighter roster, stage selection, other stuff the franchise has built up over time. sure, but World of Light doesn't possess the variety it needs to stay interesting through the whole 20-30 hours it takes to get through. Also, you're entire argument here is that if you take breaks and get variety elsewhere it doesn't matter that World of Light lacks variety. You saying breaks are the crucial key to staying interested in it means it isn't that interesting.

    the way you pick and choose what is important and what isnt, is a masters thesis of mental gymnastics

    No, it just means we value different things in our Smash games. You really like bosses you'll probably only play against til you beat once who usually aren't even that interesting and aren't even fresh and interesting forms of familiar characters like Giga Bowser was back in Melee, and I prefer the bosses like Master Hand who you'll fight multiple times and have many more attack patterns with each fight playing out differently instead of being memorize the few attack patterns they spam. I prefer variety through stuff like Break the Targets, Home Run Contest, and being able to rotate Trophies and read gaming history over a watered down Event Smash campaign that replaces Trophies with wiggling reused asset PNGs that have no history attached.

    bringing up reviews about it being bloated isnt a counter point to my assertion that world of light isnt something to be played in a very short amount of time.

    You think only critics feel this way? I've heard many normal players also echo this statement. I brought it up to lend weight that many of us feel this way about World of Light.

    Most people don't play games like that.

    Who are these most people? Cause even the people who weren't reviewing it at EZA were bingeing Ultimate after launch, because they were excited to play it. Most my friends and I also hit it hard right around launch, because we wanted to see the new content it had. I think most general fans have done this. Maybe people who are usually outside the sphere of Smash and only hopped in because it is a game everyone else is hyping up are these most people you're referring to, but I'd definitely judge the quality of the franchise off the fan reception over newcomer reception. Chasing newcomer reception often leads to diminishing quality of franchises. The Wii era of Nintendo was nothing but that, and it frustrated the devs and long term fans alike.

    i only mention eye strain because iv played very long sessions of smash since 64 it requires a lot of eye movement and iv heard this from a lot of people.

    Are you sitting too close to the tv or something? If you're a good distance away the action will always stay in your view, and you won't have to be darting your eyes around that much. Maybe if you were spamming 8 player matches with items I could see how it'd be a struggle to keep up with where you are, but I think most players can deal with 4 player matches and less once they've played Smash for a little while. Hell, right after release my friends got together to celebrate the new game and we played like 6-7 hours straight of 4 player FFAs, all while drinking no less, and none of us had a problem keeping up or felt fatigued by the end of it. Just was getting late, so we stopped for the night. It was really similar to how we'd play long sessions back in the day with Melee too. Definitely had games like Splatoon tire me out before, but Smash isn't one of them.

    We clearly have different interests and experiences with these games, and it is fine if you want to try and argue for why Ultimate is better overall in your eyes and attempt convincing me to see your side, but you can't just dismiss how I feel about the games and tell me I'm wrong and claim everyone else plays it a certain way and force me to agree with what you think. If you can't sway me based on the merits of Ultimate, we're simply going to continue to disagree. I'm not the type to just go along with what you're saying, because you're telling me I'm wrong if you can't show me in a satisfactory manner how I'm wrong in a way that makes sense more than "newer game is naturally better".


  • Global Moderator

    @mbun said in Super Smash Bros. Ultimate (Switch):

    If you take ANY older game in a series out of its time frame it will almost always be "inferior" to the newer entry in the series. That's not even worth discussing, because if we went by that logic, the newest entry is always the best, and that makes for super boring discussion and discredits the legacy and work of the older entry in the series simply for not existing furthest into the future.

    Without going too far off topic, I don't agree with this at all. It's why we still see a lot of people/sites ranking the best in a series. I can think of several games where I don't feel like the latest is the best in that series.



  • @tokeeffe9 said:

    I don't agree with this at all. It's why we still see a lot of people/sites ranking the best in a series. I can think of several games where I don't feel like the latest is the best in that series.

    We're specifically talking about the parts of games where a later entry in the series builds on the work of earlier entries. Of course someone could prefer an older Uncharted game for preferring that one's story leading to ranking it higher, and it is fair to praise the newest Uncharted game for any refinements it made to the game mechanics since the entry before it upon release, but if you're fairly comparing Uncharted 2 to Uncharted 4 and your argument for why 2 is so much worse is that they don't possess those refinements 4 only got from the work of 3 and 2 itself, that's not a fair argument for why 4 is better. That just saying of course the newest one is best, because it gets everything 2 and 3 did and gets to add more to it. There's also exceptions even within games of a series like Pokemon games, where GameFreak often does not bring back some improvements from previous entries to the newest one leading to additional reasons to value an old one over a new one outside of all the other reasons one could prefer an older game. Then there's games more like Final Fantasy where most the games try to be deliberately different from one another, easily leading to a wide split between favorites amount fans, because that weight of just building up over time isn't as present to sway most people towards newer entries.

    These are both Smash games that increased their roster size, stage selection, and music library. Ultimate only has more of this content being discussed, because the ground work for specifically that content was laid out during 64, Melee, Brawl, and Smash 4. This specific new to Ultimate content doesn't even match up to the new to Melee content going from 64 to Melee. If Melee was made today, it'd have the same luxury of getting to pull things from Brawl, Smash 4, and hypothetically Ultimate if we're just flipping them in the timelines, as well as would be developed for a medium that allows a larger filesize on it accommodating that extra amount of content.

    That's why when comparing the two you have to cut Melee some slack on that front. It doesn't lack those things out of worse game design or lazier devs at the time but instead because of when it was developed and released. Ultimate having that stuff is great, but it shouldn't be this huge bonus on Ultimate's end if you're fairly comparing the two. If all that was new to Ultimate, not mostly work from past games brought back into it, and it exceeded the amount Melee added, then that would be an argument for why Ultimate is better. Where we actually are though Melee added more new content than Ultimate on these fronts, so if we're being fair, Melee should get the credit here instead.



  • Just finished World of Light. It feels like it goes on forever at times (no joke my final completion time is like 26 and a half hours or something, granted I went for the hundo) but whenever you're in a portal and doing a section that's clearly themed around a specific game's world it's really cool, and the bosses are all excellent. Overall I had a good time, though I'm not looking forward to having to redo that final boss for one of the challenges on the board.



  • @mbun It doesnt matter what the could haves or what it could have built on. They did the best with what they had and the resources they had. it still makes smash ultimate a better package for me though.



  • Oh hey this is a thing! Cool! I've been really enjoying the game! I doubt I'll reach a higher level of skill but I'm still having fun!







  • Just picked up a Switch for "free" (traded in my WiiU/games + giftcards over the past year) and naturally, I picked up Smash first. My impressions are light so far because I plan on saving a lot of things like World of Light for a trip I'm taking soon, but I'll say that I'm immediately enjoying this release more than Smash on the WiiU. Even playing with my roommate on the tiny Joy-cons turned sideways worked out way better than I had anticipated.



  • I finished World of Light yesterday and I recognize this is an unpopular thought but... it just wasn't very good at all. I'm a sucker for RPG mechanics but I think they don't really add anything to the experience of Smash. The first hour was intriguing, picking up spirits, leveling them, avoiding fights I wasn't powerful enough for... but the rest of the journey felt like a slog. I wouldn't consider myself a Smash expert but the normal difficulty was too easy and stuffed with too many fights. Over 80% of the fights ended in less than 5 seconds, all so I could pick up the 12th spirit that gives wind immunity. The most "challenging" fights involved floors with status effects but all you needed to do there was swap out your party and bam, another fight over in a few seconds. While there are some moments that filled me with joy (mostly entering the "dungeon" like sections for the first time), World of Light is mostly just mindless and way too long. Since no new ideas are really introduced throughout the length of the game, it gets stale... quick. Even though it takes like 20-30 hours to complete, it honestly just felt extremely lazy and I'm glad I'm finished with it finally.

    At least I've got the full roster unlocked finally and can hopefully get some Smash on with friends soon enough.



  • @sabotagethetruth Unpopular or not I agree wholeheartedly. Try out Classic Mode if you haven't though. It is much better imo.



  • I LOVE IT ALL
    Some of us should get together over the weekend and fight


  • Global Moderator

    I finished it the other day too. Pretty much played it every day on my commutes and as @SabotageTheTruth mentioned, the RPG elements are kinda pointless as you just earn cards that completely negate that effect. I had a fine time playing it and some of the dungeons were cool but ya... there's nothing really there. And I was a little let down by the other two cutscenes.