The Naughty Dog Agenda
Sheria last edited by Sheria
First of all, those that think using a pre-existing video to articulate ones point is cheap in anyway, need not bother with their pathetic counterpoint. Sometimes we just find videos or articles that have had a greater time to articulate the point we always had in our heads, but never bothered to put to type.
There are a number of developers I'm starting to ignore, and while it remains very small, I think it's important to highlight these things when we see them, regardless as to how well the games are reviewed.
This video does a good job of expressing how I feel about Naughty Dog and certainly about Druckmann himself. I think it's at least worth a watch, even for those who might disagree
SabotageTheTruth last edited by
So... watching that video, the creator keeps mentioning as long as the same-sex relationships don't actively affect the story, it shouldn't matter. He's not sexist or homophobic, he just values a good story. He mentions several times that Naughty Dog crafts great stories but then relies on tweets to make an argument that an agenda is being forced upon him? He states that the focus should never be on the sexuality of a character yet takes such a deep dive into Twitter accounts to prove how important that sexuality actually is.
"There's an over-emphasis on female characters." - when talking about The Last of Us II, and then goes on to mention three female characters. THREE female characters is too many? He mentions there is absolutely no point in showing Ellie kissing Dina, that the scene doesn't pertain to the gameplay, yet that edit of the trailer is done very intentionally - she is told by someone sharing an intimate moment that people should be afraid of her, cut to Ellie murdering a bunch of people, cut back to her smiling brightly.
The creator of the video mentions several times how hostile people are against his opinions, stating he doesn't mean anyone harm, he just wants a good story... And yet there isn't a single example he provided of how women have made Naughty Dog games "worse". He provides no examples on why Ellie being a lesbian makes the story suffer. He spends twenty minutes not really saying anything besides, "look at all the women in games now! That's different from the games I used to play," which isn't an argument. Women don't make stories worse. Members of the LGBTQ community don't make stories worse.
I'm a straight white male who values story the most in games. When I (rarely) see a character that isn't straight in a game, I don't think the developers are trying to make me more "accepting", I think they created a character that happens to have a different sexual orientation - kinda like how I have the chance to run into people like that when I walk around in the real world. We have SO many games that star a straight white male protagonist that happens to be buff and is named Jack or Tom or John yet I don't think any one of us would claim that's an agenda being pushed, that's just the character that was created for the game. So if a different sort of character is created, why do people immediately assume it's an "agenda"? Even if you could prove without a doubt that Naughty Dog has a grand scheme that they're unleashing on the world, this video admits the scheme would be for acceptance... and why would acceptance ever be a bad thing?
I made a very conscious choice to dismantle the logic of the video here itself and not personally attack you, because I would like to avoid creating that conflict as much as possible here on the forums but wow... this video, I could not be more opposed to its overall message.
bard91 last edited by
Not having watched the video being at work and all, and clarifying that I'm as a liberal as we come I have a question about the matter that is unrelated to the specific case.
So what if the game and the studio have an agenda?
It is entirely their choice as a creative outlet to give the message they want in their product, and it is entirely up to the consumers to embrace or reject that if they so choose. I can understand frustration if the quality of a product is being compromised to carry out that message, but I don't think there would be any fair indication that this is the case at the moment.
So long as the agenda and the message are not straight up nocive to the society and inciting actual harmful action or reinforcing sick behaviors I wouldn't have an issue with it, which is not the same as saying that I would endorse it.
TokyoSlim last edited by TokyoSlim
SO many games that star a straight white male protagonist that happens to be buff and is named Jack or Tom or John yet I don't think any one of us would claim that's an agenda being pushed
I mean, it may not be a conscious or malicious agenda, but it's DEFINITELY an agenda. They are aiming to appeal to a demographic, they are trying to enable a specific type of power fantasy.
The word "agenda" is being treated like its some kind of bogeyman. An agenda is just a plan. All those straight, white, buff dudes are just as planned as any thing else. Naughty Dog's plan is to have better female characters in their games that are treated like real people.
El Shmiablo last edited by El Shmiablo
Watched that video the other day. Others have already articulated (much better) what I was going to say.
For a guy who doesn't like "agendas", he sure pushes his own pretty hard.
GET YOUR HETERO NORMATIVE AGENDA OUT OF MY GAMES, NAUGHTY DOG!
I think my favorite part of the video is where he spends several minutes complaining about the forced relationship between Chloe and Nadine. For those of you who have actually played Lost Legacy you may be saying "wjat". He isn't talking about the game, but instead some dev drawn fanart that ships Chloe and Nadine. One of dude's major talking points is non-canon shipping. Fucking LOL.
But yeah. Much like the outrage against Battlefield V, I feel it has less to do with any sort of "authenticity" or concern for quality of the game, and more to do with a bunch of angry sperglords who can't handle stronk waminz in da vidyagamz.
Not really sure how you got "pushing an agenda" out of that video. Seems more like a frustrated fan that's bothered by the huge focus on Social Justice. As someone that cringes when each time SJW is mentioned in a forum or video and thinks most people tend to needless hate on them because they want super lewd waifus in games, He seemed like someone that was pretty rational and clearly made a case for why he felt Naughty Dog was getting silly. He even say that it was their right to do what they are doing, but it can get to the point of harming his interest in the games they put out.
DIPSET last edited by
Internet weirdo exposes himself as a weirdo. Delete Twitter dude. Go make some friends.
SabotageTheTruth last edited by
@sacred-arfaid What logical examples did he provide of Naughty Dog focusing too much on social justice within their games though? He mentioned Bill being gay in The Last of Us (said it was done well) and Ellie shown to be a lesbian in the stand-alone DLC (saying it had a nice build-up and was a good representation of her character). He picks apart tweets from some of the development team but doesn't show how those affect the game in any way whatsoever - aside from saying The Last of Us II places too much emphasis on women, despite this story obviously being more Ellie-focused than the last outing.
Just a friendly reminder that using logic and speaking in a calm tone while reminding people that you're not trying to be offensive doesn't automatically mean your logic stands up and shouldn't be questioned. If I saw a 20 minute video of someone calmly saying that Machinegames pushes an anti-Nazi agenda and maybe they're being too harsh on Nazis... I would also say that video is something I'm completely opposed to.
If I'm being honest with my take-away - it's a "fan" that really loves the games but continually looks at tweets and news articles to fuel his vendetta against seeing more women in games. If you watch the Last of Us II E3 2018 trailer and your main thought is that trailer showed off too many women, then your head isn't in the right place. We should be focusing on all the new mechanics, the new story being told, and how amazing those animations and graphics look.
El Shmiablo last edited by
@sacred-arfaid What huge push are you talking about? Having played almost every game Naughty Dog has ever produced, I have never once felt there was any sort of SJW agenda even remotely present.
Even complaints like Nadine being able to take on Nate and Sam are pretty easily done away with for anybody who takes even a moment to think about the scenario (two older men with no formal combat training going up against a younger character who spent much of their childhood in combat situations).
Also, I have to laugh at anybody who seriously thinks there is some sort actul SJW agenda being hoisted upon them when less than 10% of the games at E3 had a female protagonist.
Faaip last edited by
Personally as long as the games are good and I have fun playing them I don't care much about what the creators tweet.. I didn't care with Kingdom Come and I don't care with Naughty Dog. If they keep making great games, I'll keep playing.
I honestly don't see how any sort of agenda is being pushed in the games themselves. To me Uncharted 4 doesn't feel any different from the first Uncharted in that regard. Also, we've seen about 15 minutes total of TLOU2 so its really too early to make any kind of call on that
iboshow last edited by
Games are, Art. Art is about pushing agenda.
Echoplex25 last edited by
he's right and its blatantly obvious what Naughty Dog is doing
thats not the real problem, the real problem is if the game is going to have a lot of unskippable walk and chat scenes all over and have awful gameplay
why don't devs just focus on fun first when making a game, I spent $60 to play a game not get an (((((experience)))))
El Shmiablo last edited by
bam541 last edited by
I'm kinda... disturbed (is that the right word? maybe troubled fits better) about it too, especially after they launched the 2nd TLOU Part II trailer, and seeing the casts for that trailer. I'm hoping the final game doesn't turn out as hamfisted as the recent trailers. I mean, i have no problem with developers having opinions and agendas and all that (and i support ND's stance in some ways), do what you want man, just make good games. But you gotta do it subtle, don't ever focus on it (except if your game's theme is exactly that, but TLOU is certainly not).
Seeing my favorite dev in a weird state like this certainly bothers me, but i still believe they can make things smoother.
For one, it's not just what's in the game that seems to be his issue, in fact, I think he even says that having diversity isn't a problem for him, just that ND seems more fixated on the concept of pander to the people that feel these elements are the end all be all of entertainment. I get the impression that he feel that can and have made diverse characters in the past, without the need to make it the primary focus, or many it a part of every decision the make. Just seems like they are making it too important to the fabric of the company.
TokyoSlim last edited by
can and have made diverse characters in the past, without the need to make it the primary focus
That's called Tokenism
Guest last edited by
You'd never see someone do a long rambling video on gears of wars about a masculine agenda. This is just another insecure guy who probably needs a girlfriend.
Doesn't Gears V have a chick in the lead?
Guest last edited by Guest
@el-shmiablo Fist the skull horse?
Not going into detail here but my signature should say it all, the amount of westren made games I purchase has been heavily reduced in the last few years since a certain group of people I can not name has forced themselves into it, imo they really soc, jus like the boomers who are also censorous af.
WIth the time more and more people will realize that this bs simpy doesn't make good games, especially not those you'd want to spend 60 bucks on, it happened in the comic industry, it will happen in the gaming industry.
Please ignore the typos, english is not my 1st language.
Guest last edited by
@sacred-arfaid Dammit your right is nothing sacred. Games are destroyed forever.