The Naughty Dog Agenda



  • @mcgeezaks said in The Naughty Dog Agenda:

    They aren't? Is that why half of the E3 trailer was about Ellie being a lesbian? They're the ones making her being a lesbian a big deal

    How the hell is the trailer about Ellie being a lesbian?? We already know she is from the previous game, it's not even like it's a big reveal.

    What the trailer shows is her having found a place in a new society, having made friends and even a girlfriend, and being at a party, all of which illustrates she's finally at peace in a safe environment after all the horrors of the first game, and has probably been there for quite a while. She has formed strong bonds with these people and they are what she surely now considers her family. Which serves as a huge contrast with the gameplay section where she's all alone, full of rage and savagely murdering people.

    THAT is what the trailer is about.

    If all you took away from it is "Ugh they're shoving the fact she's a lesbian down our throats", then I repeat, YOU are the one looking for a problem.

    If she kissed a dude you wouldn't say they're making her heterosexuality the theme of the game, would you? So ask yourself why it irks you so much.



  • @mcgeezaks said in The Naughty Dog Agenda:

    Is that why half of the E3 trailer was about Ellie being a lesbian?

    Actually, nearly none of it was "about" her being a lesbian. About 10 and 3/4 minutes of the 11:53 was about how people should be fucking terrified of her because she's a human slaughterhouse.



  • @el-shmiablo Wonder Woman roots are SnM and that's not Sun and Moon


  • Banned

    @axel said in The Naughty Dog Agenda:

    How the hell is the trailer about Ellie being a lesbian?? We already know she is from the previous game, it's not even like it's a big reveal.

    Not the entire thing but a big focus is on her being lesbian, obviously.

    @axel said in The Naughty Dog Agenda:

    If all you took away from it is "Ugh they're shoving the fact she's a lesbian down our throats", then I repeat, YOU are the one looking for a problem.

    I never said that, you're just assuming the worst out of me.

    @axel said in The Naughty Dog Agenda:

    If she kissed a dude you wouldn't say they're making her heterosexuality the theme of the game, would you?

    Why would I? Being straight is the norm.

    @axel said in The Naughty Dog Agenda:

    So ask yourself why it irks you so much.

    I'll say it again, if it did bother me ''so much'' I wouldn't buy the game.



  • Not sure if it's quite what people are looking for with the "tell me a game that was made worse" thing, but the Hainly Abrams character in Mass Effect Andromeda comes to mind. There was no purpose to that character really, her primary reason for being in the game was being Trans.

    https://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2017-03-28-mass-effect-andromeda-is-another-failure-for-trans-representation

    I think this is ultimately the same point that a lot are fearing. There's no denying that Ellies sexuality has been placed front and centre, in both the Left Behind DLC and the trailer at E3. But I think there's a difference between a token character and the main character of a videogame. If it's a deeply personal story, that characters sexuality may very well come up, it certainly comes up in Uncharted all the time and those stories aren't all that personal, with the exception of 4. How "forced" it feels will most likely depend on the execution.



  • @tokyoslim said in The Naughty Dog Agenda:

    Man, the Yoshi and Birdo relationship in Mario Tennis must really piss you guys off.

    On the contrary, I'd happily have lesbian leads in my next three games if it all appears like a natural choice. Not interested in the ones done by people openly admitting that some sort of change is long overdue.



  • @mcgeezaks said in The Naughty Dog Agenda:

    Being straight is the norm.

    The norm is that there's straight, gay, bisexual, trans, asexual, and a whole host of other variations of sexuality, gender, and ethnicity.



  • @mcgeezaks Some of those "you" were the general you, I was addressing the people who think making a lead character homosexual automatically means having a political agenda and should be denounced.



  • @sheria
    You're saying "I'm ok with gay characters as long as they don't happen because someone wants to write a gay character." Seems like a very conveniently impossible bar to get over.


  • Banned

    @tokyoslim said in The Naughty Dog Agenda:

    The norm is that there's straight, gay, bisexual, trans, asexual, and a whole host of other variations of sexuality, gender, and ethnicity.

    Not sure what you're implying or trying to argue about but when it comes to sexuality, hetero is the norm.

    @axel said in The Naughty Dog Agenda:

    I was addressing the people who think making a lead character homosexual automatically means having a political agenda and should be denounced.

    Nothing wrong with having a gay character in your game unless it feels forced. You have to wonder why they would replace a seasoned host with a lesbian blogger who doesn't play video games for their Q&A/presentation of the game or why the only person Druckmann handpicked to be a VA just happened to be trans and a ''SJW''.



  • @tokyoslim said in The Naughty Dog Agenda:

    @sheria
    You're saying "I'm ok with gay characters as long as they don't happen because someone wants to write a gay character." Seems like a very conveniently impossible bar to get over.

    Not what I said.



  • @sheria Then you're failing to either understand the issue, or you're purposefully obfuscating it.

    There's nothing forced about Ellie that isn't also Forced about Nathan Drake. If you're holding up her sexuality as being forced, then so is his. Both of them are fictitious characters that were written. One of them is not "more natural" than the other. All heterosexual characters who have relationships in games are written, just like all the gay ones are.



  • @sheria said in The Naughty Dog Agenda:

    I'd happily have lesbian leads in my next three games if it all appears like a natural choice.

    @mcgeezaks said in The Naughty Dog Agenda:

    Nothing wrong with having a gay character in your game unless it feels forced.

    I think that's the thing right there.

    How does Ellie being a lesbian feel forced or not a natural choice? Why can't a character be gay or a girl or black just for the hell of it? Why are white straight male characters the norm, but any other character type has to justify its existence somehow?

    Like I said earlier, for me it's only a matter of variety, it's cool to play as all sorts of characters in all sorts of games.

    Basically, some people are saying "Why?" while others are saying "Why not?"



  • @mcgeezaks said in The Naughty Dog Agenda:

    Not sure what you're implying or trying to argue about but when it comes to sexuality, hetero is the norm.

    If by "norm" you mean the majority - then yes. So your argument is that media should only reflect the majority? That being the case, all Videogames should be about Han Chinese people. Since, on this planet, being Chinese is the norm. If you think that it's ok to write games with Western protagonists in them because they are aimed at a Western market - then it's also ok for videogames to have non-straight protagonists in them, because they are appealing to people who are either not straight, or the people like me who don't define a person's whole worth and motivation based on who they kiss.

    If by "norm" you mean "normal" and you believe homosexuality, bisexuality, and etc. to be abnormal - then you're incorrect. Various sexual orientations are historically prevalent in all cultures, and in most species with developed sexuality. Homosexuality is a normal subset of human sexuality.



  • @hazz3r said in The Naughty Dog Agenda:

    the Hainly Abrams character in Mass Effect Andromeda comes to mind.

    Was this character not handled or written well? From reading that article... No.
    Her being trans isn't inherently bad. Her being trans as a token trans character in that clumsy way isn't great.

    Did her character ruin the game? Considering I just finished a 107 hour play through of that game last week and I don't even think I saw this person - no? And comparing this to Ellie is kind of ridiculous. Ellie is clearly not a token character with poorly written dialog. So, doesn't really apply.



  • @tokyoslim said in The Naughty Dog Agenda:

    @sheria Then you're failing to either understand the issue, or you're purposefully obfuscating it.

    There's nothing forced about Ellie that isn't also Forced about Nathan Drake. If you're holding up her sexuality as being forced, then so is his. Both of them are fictitious characters that were written. One of them is not "more natural" than the other. All heterosexual characters who have relationships in games are written, just like all the gay ones are.

    You continue to focus on individual games and characters and seem to have completely missed that that the video focuses on it all as a bigger picture, you're clearly also unaware of things Druckmann as happily admitted himself.

    I could happily write a lesbian or unsexualised female for my next game, that doesn't mean I think there's an underline diversity or female objectification problem within gaming that needs to be addressed, nor does I mean that in allowing that to influence my artistic choices.



  • @sheria said in The Naughty Dog Agenda:

    doesn't mean I think there's an underline diversity or female objectification problem within gaming that needs to be addressed.

    Here we go... why do you suppose you "believe" that? Do you have any counter-evidence for the math that while roughly half of gamers are female, most games are made by men, with male protagonists?


  • Banned

    @tokyoslim That last paragraph reminded me of the outcry over the announcement you can have same sex relations in the new Assassins Creed. Homosexual relationships were so common in Ancient Greece as to be the norm. Warriors believed that true love could only be found on the battlefield with other men, and women were used primarily to propogate the war machine.

    Sigh.

    Personally I blame Jordan Peterson for this sudden resurgance in lazy Christian conservatism. He's turned babby's first social darwinism into some sort of fundamentalist movement.



  • @tokyoslim said in The Naughty Dog Agenda:

    @sheria said in The Naughty Dog Agenda:

    doesn't mean I think there's an underline diversity or female objectification problem within gaming that needs to be addressed.

    Here we go... why do you suppose you "believe" that? Do you have any counter-evidence for the math that while roughly half of gamers are female, most games are made by men, with male protagonists?

    I'm fully aware of how everything is thanks. That actually being a problem that's in need of rectification however is a very different question. Everyone here seems pretty adamant that it doesn't matter who or what you play as, as long as it's good. It would seem an imbalance in diversity never was an issue that needs to be fixed.


  • Banned

    @tokyoslim said in The Naughty Dog Agenda:

    So your argument is that media should only reflect the majority?

    Yes that's totally what I'm saying.

    No I'm saying that people won't think twice when straight people kiss because it's the norm in every society.

    @tokyoslim said in The Naughty Dog Agenda:

    then it's also ok for videogames to have non-straight protagonists in them

    I never said otherwise, I don't know why you're assuming so much.

    @tokyoslim said in The Naughty Dog Agenda:

    or the people like me who don't define a person's whole worth and motivation based on who they kiss.

    Give yourself a good 'ol pat yourself on the back.

    @axel said in The Naughty Dog Agenda:

    I think that's the thing right there.
    How does Ellie being a lesbian feel forced or not a natural choice? Why can't a character be gay or a girl or black just for the hell of it? Why are white straight male characters the norm, but any other character type has to justify its existence somehow?

    I don't know why you're grouping all of these things together but to answer your question, I don't care what gender/sexuality my character has unless the developers are being really tryhards about it

    ''Hey guys, wamen can be STRONK and cool to, did u know that?!''

    ''Did I mention I was BLACK?''

    ''Don't forget that I'm LESBIAN guys!''

    It can be done right. Lee Everett from TWD is one of my favorite vidya characters of all time, the only time I think his race was brought up was in a comedic conversation during episode 2. I also like nu-Lara Croft better than the douche Drake from Uncharted.

    I have no idea why they even included that dancing and kissing scene in the E3 trailer, they could've cut it and no real information would've been lost. I just think it was weird and weirdly cut, but that's just my opinion.


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