The Naughty Dog Agenda



  • @sheria How would you know if it's a problem or not? Have you polled a large number of women gamers to find out if they'd like more representation?

    Or is it just a matter of you believing something based 100% on convenience for you?


  • Banned

    @tokyoslim said in The Naughty Dog Agenda:

    while roughly half of gamers are female

    If you include mobile games, maybe. According to most of those statistics my 52 year old mother who plays candy crush on her phone is a gamer, why does she need more representation in actual video games?



  • @tokyoslim said in The Naughty Dog Agenda:

    @sheria How would you know if it's a problem or not? Have you polled a large number of women gamers to find out if they'd like more representation?

    Or is it just a matter of you believing something based 100% on convenience for you?

    It's based on something that's established itself just fine. If there's a call for new things, they will come naturally as and when publishers see a market for it. Ideology pushers all of a sudden, I don't welcome.

    If it's of any interest to you, I prefer female leads in games. My top 5 favourite characters of all time are April Ryan, Kate Ryan, George Stobbart, Victoria McPherson and Shion Uzuki.



  • @mcgeezaks said in The Naughty Dog Agenda:

    @tokyoslim said in The Naughty Dog Agenda:

    So your argument is that media should only reflect the majority?

    Yes that's totally what I'm saying.

    Seems like that's your underlying point, yeah.

    No I'm saying that people won't think twice when straight people kiss because it's the norm in every society.

    People shouldn't think twice about lesbians kissing either. They do it a lot. Pretty normal.

    Give yourself a good 'ol pat yourself on the back.

    Thanks, I will!

    It can be done right. Lee Everett from TWD is one of my favorite vidya characters of all time, the only time I think his race was brought up was in a comedic conversation during episode 2.

    Are you aware that it sounds like you just said that the right way to handle black people is to not to acknowledge their race unless you're making it funny? That seems... ill worded.

    I have no idea why they even included that dancing and kissing scene in the E3 trailer, they could've cut it and no real information would've been lost. I just think it was weird and weirdly cut, but that's just my opinion.

    Strange, I learned more about the current situation in the game from that scene than I did from the first two trailers combined.



  • @sheria said in The Naughty Dog Agenda:

    If there's a call for new things, they will come naturally as and when publishers see a market for it.

    Ideology pushers all of a sudden, I don't welcome.

    In this case B is a clear example of A - and you're just stubbornly refusing to believe it



  • @mcgeezaks said in The Naughty Dog Agenda:

    @tokyoslim said in The Naughty Dog Agenda:

    while roughly half of gamers are female

    If you include mobile games, maybe. According to most of those statistics my 52 year old mother who plays candy crush on her phone is a gamer, why does she need more representation in actual video games?

    Agreed. But most of the main publishers know that, even so that they still said they see a female lead as possible risk to profits. But there's another recent "problem" pulled out of the air all of a sudden, that there's actually a problem with specific gender dominated hobbies. (or careers, or studies, or …)



  • @tokyoslim said in The Naughty Dog Agenda:

    @sheria said in The Naughty Dog Agenda:

    If there's a call for new things, they will come naturally as and when publishers see a market for it.

    Ideology pushers all of a sudden, I don't welcome.

    In this case B is a clear example of A - and you're just stubbornly refusing to believe it

    I'm sorry but simply standing up in defence of something is not the same position.


  • Banned

    @tokyoslim said in The Naughty Dog Agenda:

    Seems like that's your underlying point, yeah.

    Then you should practice your reading comprehension.

    @tokyoslim said in The Naughty Dog Agenda:

    People shouldn't think twice about lesbians kissing either. They do it a lot. Pretty normal.

    But people do because it's not the norm.

    @tokyoslim said in The Naughty Dog Agenda:

    Are you aware that it sounds like you just said that the right way to handle black people is to not to acknowledge their race unless you're making it funny? That seems... ill worded.

    The best and right way is to not acknowledge their race at all, because being/having a black character shouldn't be painted up to be a big deal.

    @tokyoslim said in The Naughty Dog Agenda:

    Strange, I learned more about the current situation in the game from that scene than I did from the first two trailers combined.

    That doesn't say much since they told us absolutely nothing.



  • @sheria said in The Naughty Dog Agenda:

    @tokyoslim said in The Naughty Dog Agenda:

    @sheria said in The Naughty Dog Agenda:

    If there's a call for new things, they will come naturally as and when publishers see a market for it.

    Ideology pushers all of a sudden, I don't welcome.

    In this case B is a clear example of A - and you're just stubbornly refusing to believe it

    I'm sorry but simply standing up in defence of something is not the same position.

    They are not simply standing up in defense. That's the entire point. This is what "it coming naturally and when publishers see a market for it" looks like man. TLOU2 is gonna sell like 8-10 million copies. lol



  • @mcgeezaks said in The Naughty Dog Agenda:

    But people do because it's not the norm.

    That's called prejudice

    The best and right way is to not acknowledge their race at all, because being/having a black character shouldn't be painted up to be a big deal.

    Yeah, that's not how it goes though. It might have been right for that character, but unless you're writing all black characters to never bring up or discuss or acknowledge that they are black - kinda seems like you want a silent token black guy.


  • Banned

    @tokyoslim said in The Naughty Dog Agenda:

    That's called prejudice

    It's called seeing something you normally never see.



  • @tokyoslim said in The Naughty Dog Agenda:

    @sheria said in The Naughty Dog Agenda:

    @tokyoslim said in The Naughty Dog Agenda:

    @sheria said in The Naughty Dog Agenda:

    If there's a call for new things, they will come naturally as and when publishers see a market for it.

    Ideology pushers all of a sudden, I don't welcome.

    In this case B is a clear example of A - and you're just stubbornly refusing to believe it

    I'm sorry but simply standing up in defence of something is not the same position.

    They are not simply standing up in defense. That's the entire point. This is what "it coming naturally and when publishers see a market for it" looks like man. TLOU2 is gonna sell like 8-10 million copies. lol

    Ahh I see, sorry, misunderstood. Well, time will tell. It will sell well, no arguments there, but I personally disagree it will make any difference to the so called "issues" these few are concocting. But the thing is, if the games are such sure fire hits, there's actually no need for the underlining agenda push. Unfortunately, the fact that these are high profile and wanted games means Druckmann sees it as a nice little platform to try and give the industry a little nudge to see things in the way he wants it.



  • @mcgeezaks said in The Naughty Dog Agenda:

    @tokyoslim said in The Naughty Dog Agenda:

    That's called prejudice

    It's called seeing something you normally never see.

    I see people kiss all the time. Lesbians even. I have a television and the internet. Welcome to 2018.



  • @sheria said in The Naughty Dog Agenda:

    I personally disagree it will make any difference to the so called "issues" these few are concocting

    If the issue as stated was a lack of games with women or queer protagonists, then by making exactly that kind of game, he's "making a difference" to the issue. :)


  • Banned

    @tokyoslim I personally think that is severely lowballing TLOU2 sales. The first game sold 17 million. I'm betting this smashes even GoW in terms of sales.



  • @el-shmiablo It might. I was thinking like just next year though. Is the remaster included in that 17 million?


  • Banned

    @tokyoslim I believe so, though if I recall majority of sales were on PS3. Around 12 mill iirc.

    I want to ask a question to some of the people in this thread.

    If, by some chance, Ellie's sexuality actually IS for some reason pivotal to the story in TLOU2... what is wrong with that?
    I personally don't see it being touched on more than "Ellie has a love interest and said love interest happens to be female" but IF it somehow becomes a central plot device... what is the problem with that?

    For example, is it wrong the Black Panther dealt with black culture and black issues? If a movie/game/book has a story to tell, why shouldn't they tell that story, even if it deals with subject matter that makes you uncomfortable?

    Before somebody says "That isn't TLOU's subject matter" I want you to think about what TLOU's subject matter is. It deals with many aspects of human nature. Joel's entire plotline centered the loss of his daughter and how he came to care for Ellie because of that. Love was very central to the themes in the first game, and if the recent trailer is any indication, it seems those themes will carry over.

    If you think the focus is more on sexuality than love, that might be your problem.



  • @tokyoslim said in The Naughty Dog Agenda:

    @sheria said in The Naughty Dog Agenda:

    I personally disagree it will make any difference to the so called "issues" these few are concocting

    If the issue as stated was a lack of games with women or queer protagonists, then by making exactly that kind of game, he's "making a difference" to the issue. :)

    Like that comes close to what they want to see. I can assure you, when they see it doesn't make any significant ripples, they then like to come back and whine even louder. Poor them, all those sexists, homophobes, racists and white men are just holding things back ='(


  • Banned

    @sheria That is a nice strawman you've built there. Its looking a little flat though. Perhaps you should stuff it with a few more logical fallacies?



  • Nah, no need.


Locked