Censorship topic (out of the news thread)



  • As mentioned seems like it would be worth keeping this topic in a separate thread, so I took the liberty of creating this new topic.



  • @Mbun said in Darksiders 3 (PC/PS4/XB1):

    so basically you just don't care, because it doesn't effect your very backwards Western values on overly violent video games that dominate the market anyways. Got it.

    See you when it starts affecting violent video games like the stuff happening in China right now, but maybe then I should just make snarky posts about how it is a good thing when it starts happening since it doesn't affect the games I care about and how you had this coming for enjoying something others don't that hurts nobody, because video games are fictional and the characters in them don't have feelings.

    Or maybe you know, sympathy for people into things you personally aren't interested in, as you'd want if it was affecting the things you look forward to, like that next game where you're violently stalking and ending the life of hordes of humans with some thin justification for why that is okay. Huber needs that blood splatter on the wall just as bad as anyone needs softening gel, but I'm not going to think lesser of him for wanting it and mock his plight if that actually becomes something he has to get vocal for to keep in his entertainment medium. It should be about choices, and maybe our culture wouldn't be so afraid of sexual things if people had more of a choice to experience virtual experiences including them. That'd of course cut into the profits that violent games make each year though, so as usual we're stuck with political bullshit where one is seen as acceptable while the other isn't and people are encouraged to be jerks to one another to maintain the status quo.

    You are correct I basically do not care, and not that it matters but you are pretty much wrong in regards to my taste, most games I play are japanese and I play 1 or 2 'violent western' games per year if anything.

    I also never said this is a good thing, I don't think it is particularly bad either, it is simply a business decisions that does affect some developers and games that I honestly can't care about and as I said I don't think there's any significant loss to this, things could have remained as they were and I wouldn't particularly care either way.

    As for sympathy, that's fair point I guess, though honestly I find it hard to be too sympathetic when we can just point to a whole other world of porn and hentai games that could very well replace was is being lost here available in other platforms and that would serve the same purpose (if there's a single example so far that is not related to some sex stuff I'm not aware of it), again it is Sony's right as the platform holder to deem what they find acceptable and what they don't (I do agree they should be more clear about this though), that is not the consumer's choice.

    On regards to violence I don't fully agree with the comparison as there's a difference in my mind when it comes to the degrees to which we see each other being implemented and particularly what has been censored so far.

    I'm also not going to comment more on this right now as it is late but I don't fully agree with the complete innocence of portraying stuff in media just because it doesn't harm any real people, sometimes the harm it does can take different forms and I think it at least warrants more consideration.



  • I don't really have a lot to add to any censorship argument since my beliefs boil down to "It's stupid and there's nothing you can say to convince me otherwise." Even if I think games like all those eroge visual novels or games Omega Labyrinth Z are stupid, I still think they have a right to exist. To imply nothing of value is being lost is to imply the only opinion that matters on whether something has worth is your own. I don't think I have the right to make that call for the other 7 billion people on Earth.



  • Wait, is this in regards to the Sony thing? Or the Ubi thing? Or the Steam thing? You know, the directions global marketplaces are going to make themselves more available in a huge, untapped market: China?



  • @sazime This is in reference to the Sony changes that have little to do with the Chinese market.



  • @luka Are you sure? Their consoles aren't region locked, running multiple stores in a global marketplace is expensive and China has had historic bans on console gaming until recently. What other country could it be about?



  • @sazime Sony recently moved their head offices to California, where these changes started to occur. Shortly after this move is when the censorship started to become increasingly prominent, as well as the mandatory english content inspections from Japanese developers.

    http://blog.esuteru.com/archives/9212646.html

    This leads more to the idea that certain political/cultural ideologies are the driving force behind this issue, not trying to cater to an upcoming market (china).

    There was an excellent summarization of censorship on another site. Copied from an excellent GAF thread:


    Sony

    Saving the best for the last... Sony tried to cultivate their image, and how you can find on their systems content Nintendo and Sega would never allow... As it turns out however:

    • Has the least permissive policy out of all competitors during the PS1 (N64/Saturn/DreamCast) and PS2 (GameCube/Xbox) eras, regarding sexual content (JP/US). Examples include: Advanced V.G., Policenauts, Snatcher, BM XXX, Twisted Metal Black...

    • Similar to the above, but for violent content. For example: Linda Cube (uncensored on Saturn). (JP)

    • Some games can be rejected if deemed "not a good enough use of the hardware". That may extend to entire genres, and is determined at the pure discretion of Sony. 2D games were rejected in masse in the PS1 era and Japanese developers had to pull strings to have them approved (US), lot of vertical shumps were Xbox 360 exclusive because they didn't deserve to exist in the 16:9 age (JP, US), Ganbare Goemon PS2 was cancelled overseas over poor polygons (US), The Uncharted Vita game had to add double touch screen and IR camera gimmicks to be approved them those same features caused it to be blacklisted from PS-TV (US, JP), the Monster Hunter PSP-PS3 port made for English audiences that SCEA rejected because the models are too poor for a console game (US)...

    • According to SCEA, visual novels are not real games. This got a bunch of Sakura Taisen games cancelled.

    • How you can depict PS2 hardware in games (other platform holders have similar policies, but Sony's is the most restrictive)

    • If it's a Japanese game localized to Western markets, it can't have exclusively Japanese voice acting. This meant some games had to record an alternate shitty English dub by publisher's relatives just to be able to release it in the West.

    • Lewd or vulgar language. Applied selectively (Alundra PS1 got rejected then resubmitted, while Western games are allowed. Persona 5 has cut lines about prostitution replaced with euphemisms even in its Japanese version)

    • Whether it harms Sony's PR image. A blanket clause that was has started to see a lot of use recently.
      Sony has a separate, more extensive set of guidelines for their indie program, but I don't have the full details about that or notorious cases where they got enforced.

    Recently, there were very interesting developments.

    • PS VR launched in Japan, however some localization plans (for Namco's English Learning game) were cancelled, and devs mentioned conditions about restricted camera control by Sony.

    • After some internal restructuring, the HQ moved to a certain region in the US. Shortly after, some policy changes were immediately put into motion in the US AND Japan.

    • Super Seducer was approved and released. It passed Sony's approval checks, got a low enough rating, and was devoid by itself of any encouragement for "politically incorrect" actions, as they would lead to a game over, or any kind of sexual imagery. However, directly in response to gaming media complaining about the existence of a pick-up artist game in 2018 (as they should dating and self-help books should be made illegal, apparently) Sony retroactively pulled the game from its store after one day.

    • Omega Labyrinth Z: While rejected in a couple of European countries, its cancelled PS4 Western version was cleared by legal authorities in the US and approved by PEGI and ERSB for mature, not adult-only ratings. The decision is confirmed to come from Sony, the Western publisher is looking for ways to port it to Steam or other platforms, and the Japanese publisher is doing the next game in the series exclusively on Switch.

    • Nekopara Vol.1: Delayed indefinitely in the West for PS4 the same week as Omega Labyrinth Z. Already available on Steam. Fate of Volume 2 (announced for PS4 and Switch) unknown.

    • Senran Kagura Burst Re-Newal: Cleared by ERSB/PEGI, rejected by Sony who asked for specific parts of the game to be cut. Steam version unaffected. The cut content was allowed before.

    • Million Arthur VR: Shortly delayed to remove head patting

    • Happy Manager VR: Delayed for half a year, major changes from pre-release, most interactions with girls you meet releguated to a gallery mode that shows functional but not interactive VR, with some scenes in fixed camera.

    • Nora to Oujo to Noraneko Heart: A visual novel uncut on PC, covered with towels just enough to avoid frontal nudity for Switch, and covered with huge beams of light only leaving the head visible for the PS4/PSV versions.

    • Sugar Daddy, a homoerotic visual novel, was on the other hand approved by Sony.

    It seems there are multiple takes from this:

    • the rating boards are useless, now Sony is going to have their own ruleset for content violation just like Nintendo used to do when there were no rating boards

    • the ruleset has double standards, and isn't as predictable as in the PS1/2 days. It's not enforced in the same way on some Western developers for example

    • PS VR now disallows not only unrestricted camera (a CERO thing too) but a wide range of interactions with virtual obviously adult ladies (a rule unique to Sony that third parties are expected to get without clear messaging and act upon it... or just give up a certain genre or theme or consumer base)

    • All of the above is utterly meaningless when 5 or more game journalists start to write articles how your game shouldn't exist, then if Sony thinks you're disposable they will delist it without so much as a second thought, and all your expenses on that port go down the drain.



  • @luka Yeah, having them move an office to the porn capitol of the world influences censorship? I don't buy it.

    Game consoles being able to be sold in the largest game market in the world and the added cost of keeping up with multiple RCs? Much more likely.

    Money is the simplest answer to the changes, and the Chinese market is larger than the US market. We're ~25%, they're right up at 50% of the worldwide market.

    When you fight censorship in China, you fight the Chinese government, not a ratings board. Sony is making a business decision, as did Valve, as did Ubi. Is it a bad one? Yes. Will they change the policy? Maybe, Valve and Ubi did. But right now Sony is riding high on amazing revenues and first party games raking in cash. They don't need a third party creating a political problem with potentially 50% of their sales revenue.



  • @sazime We will see. They pissed off a great number of gamers in their home country, meanwhile Nintendo is more than accepting of these titles without needless censorship. I wouldn't be surprised to see Sony losing a good number of buyers early on in the next generation thanks to these changes.



  • @luka I get that, and I get the frustration, but regarding Nintendo: their games have Chinese specific releases that come out on a special, region specific Nvidia Shield. Nintendo has been region locking titles forever, and it made transitioning to China very simple for them when the console ban was lifted in 2015.



  • @luka I don't have a way or data to prove this, but I also find it hard to believe that they are pissing off a 'great' number of fans in Japan, this games are niche even for the japanese market (going by media crate numbers less than 100k sales), so it is a dedicated and vocal (just like in the west) but very minor fanbase that Sony may have seen as expendable, again I'm not basing this on data so if there's something to actually prove it is a bigger deal I'm willing to take this back.

    And completely agree with @Sazime , this is most likely a business decision, for some reason (honestly hadn't considered China but that is a fantastic point) Sony has determined that it is a better business decision to potentially alienate a niche market in favor of expanding markets or the possible PR cost, whether it will prove to be correct in that aspect I can't say right now, but the likelyhood that this is motivated by financial over ideological reasons sounds more likely to me, not to say the other may not be a factor at all, I just don't think it is the leading factor.



  • @hanabi the fact that they have the right to exist doesn't mean they have the right to be on the platform of their choosing without the platform holder approval though.

    As for the second part, I'm willing to admit that is mostly a subjective opinion and I'm not going to say the will of the majority has to be imposed over that of minorities, but this is something I personally see as a non issue and what has been lost as lacking in any value so from my personal stance I can't help but see it that way.



  • I'm living in germany and I will never understand why (especially in US) violence in media and guns / weapons in your neighbourhood are more accepted than some nudity and "sexual innuendo" including their representations in games.

    I mean... we all are nude under our clothes (it is the most natural thing there is) and sex (with a consenting adult partner or with yourself) is a very healthy and fun activity. An orgasm helps you sleep better, combats stress, lowers risk of prostate cancer, reduces risk of heart attacks, helps staying in shape or loosing weight, improves your skin, strengthens the immune system, relieves headaches (and helps with migraines).

    Somehow it is a taboo to talk about or showcase sexuality in any way? But violence and weapons (tools designed to hurt and kill people) are ok?

    That is just crazy to me...

    Have platform holders like Sony or Steam legally the "right" to limit or prohibit sexual content in media on their platform, resulting in developers have to censor their product? Sadly, yes... especially konsoles are closed systems and the platform holder has the ultimate power to allow or disallow any content he wants. I wish it was otherwise, but it isn't.

    Could these platform holders or the game industry instead implement a more effective (and needed) system for youth protection? Also, yes... but currently it is more cost effective (and socially accepted) for them to just censor games and government officials aren't interested either to "defend" or at least "regulate" the rights of developers to include sexual content in their games (while nobody cares about violence in games).

    All that doesn't mean, that there aren't some disgusting, sexist and / or degrading "sex games" and (due to the still mainly male audience) an overpresentation of female objectification in sexual content or that everybody has to like (and buy) games with sexual content. But there is also no real social discussion about these topics either, because the easy way is to just censor or prohibit sexual contents in games.

    At the moment this mainly affects sexual content in games. In the future it may include other controversial topics (see Youtube and their policies regarding not monetizing "undesirable" for example "political" topics).



  • So the Chinese Ethic board seems to be looking at some very popular games and not quite liking a lot in them, from what I understand this hasn't led to any actions yet, but it certainly seems like something that could have a big effect on decisions moving forward if these games do end banned or having to make changes, at least for the chinese market.

    https://www.reddit.com/r/gaming/comments/a4w3ux/chinas_ethics_board_reviews_20_popular_online/



  • Really tough topic to tackle. My two cents is, like some others, I'm not familiar with the titles that are being censored so I'm personally not being effected too much. While those games don't interest me I don't think they should be banned or censored. However, if the platform doesn't want those games on their system that is their right to deny them or ask for them to be altered to be sold on their platform.

    If this pisses you off, let Sony know. Write them on twitter and anywhere else you can, don't buy their products. Buy products that do support your interest or support not censoring games. Also understand that not everyone is going to be as passionate about this as you may be. Others, I'd bet a large portion, won't see this as an issue, but I do think it's important to know that this is happening.



  • Censorship is never good, ever... Change my mind



  • @the_andredal

    But... but... those games that I never would buy offend me personally! Therefore they should be censored/banned! /s



  • @themarcv I've already abandoned Sony. I got Tetris Effect used solely because of these policies and I don't intend to pick up any future releases beyond that. If I do, it's going to be the same deal where I get it secondhand. My PS4 isn't even connected to the internet at this point.



  • if Sony continues this, i will switch to Xbox next generation



  • @hanabi

    And that's completely in your right to do. If this issue is where you draw the line, draw the line like you have. I would even tell Sony that these choices have made you no longer want their products. The only thing that is kind of collateral damage is the devs of the games you buy used. They had no say in what Sony does/doesn't allow but you buying their game used basically means they get nothing from your purchase,however that is just how this industry is right now.