Censorship topic (out of the news thread)



  • I have a general question for the board, has there ever been a game that made you kinda of uncomfortable to play? For me that game was Dragon's Crown, I love that game, had a blast playing it and bought it three times (PS3,Vita and PS4). However I really didn't like the over sexual design of the amazon and sorcerer among some other characters. I personally wouldn't have mind having the option to kind of cover them up, I didn't buy the game to look at bouncing boobs or shaking booty, I just wanted a fun fantasy beat'em up.



  • @themarcv the only clear example that comes to mind for myself was with GTA V, I already didn't like the characters but when it came to the mission were you tortured a guy there was such a level of dissonance between myself and the character and their actions that it did become extremely unsettling and I stopped playing the game soon after that, it wasn't the violence itself that did it for me, but rather the context and how things were presented.

    I'm sure there are other examples I could come up with, but it would probably be minor things and not comparable to the previous one.



  • @themarcv said in Censorship topic (out of the news thread):

    I have a general question for the board, has there ever been a game that made you kinda of uncomfortable to play?

    God, no.


  • Banned

    @themarcv Blazblue story mode (any iteration)
    I understand that anime fans don't have a particularly good sense of humour, but Jesus that stuff was some of the most cringe inducing garbage I've ever had the displeasure of experience. I actually hard quit after accidentally stumbling upon a nonsequiter story thread where the characters talk only in fish puns because LOL TROUT SO FUNNAY.

    That and Ar Tonelico Qoga. The vast majority of the game is really awkward and cringey fetish pandering, but I think the dungeon where you dive into a party member's head and confront the manifestations of her fear of pooping really put the last few nails in the coffin.

    Also, funny side story.
    Had a buddy over a few years back for some dranks and games. I let him check out God of War 3. When he got to the part where you beat the everloving fuck out if Helios and then gouge out his eyes by pressing in L3 and R3, he physically threw the control down after realizing what happened.



  • @bard91
    Interesting, I don't really recall how I felt while playing that scene. I personally have never really had an issue with violence or gore, I can pretty easily separate fiction/reality so that extreme violence in games just doesn't really phase me (like you mention for you, it was the context of that scene that made you uneasy, not just the violence). With over sexual content I mostly just feel kinda dirty. Like the devs put in an extra busty lady to get my gears going or whatever and it just distracts from the game I'm trying to enjoy. Like Bayonetta, it always just kinda seemed like the devs were saying "Hey look at her, isn't she sexy and look at this, re clothes remove when you do this move" and I'm just like yeah, this is a big turn off that you'd think I'd want to play this because of how 'sexy' your character is. I dunno, I have a hard time enjoying a guy when I feel the dev is trying to titillate me, it's just not why I enjoy video games.



  • @themarcv

    A number of them are, yes. Senran Kagura, Dead or Alive Scarlet, Yuragi-Sou No Yuuna-San, Omega Labyrinth Z, or Super Seducer are just a few examples of the games I would have purchased, either because I was genuinely interested (Senran Kagura, Yuragi) or wanted a dumb game to laugh at (such is the case with OLZ and Super).

    Usually with these games, there are other avenues of getting them (such as different regions or different platforms, such as Noraneko on Switch vs Playstation). However, I cannot in good conscience purchase a product that has been needlessly censored to appease people who had zero interest in purchasing the game to begin with.



  • @themarcv Yes. I was uncomfortable watching the scenes play out between Caim and Angelus in Darkengard. I was uncomfortable when I walked through the halls of Alchemilla Hospital in Silent Hill, seeing the unnerving nurses roaming around. I was uncomfortable murdering civilians in an airport with Call of Duty Modern Warfare 2.

    And I loved that those games put me out of my comfort zone. Games should allow a range of emotions that a player can feel and trying to limit such is an asinine endeavor.


  • Banned

    @luka I think there is a slightdifference between being unnerved by something shocking and fondling a young girl in a mini game meant to be a major selling point of said game but oh wait it's fine because she is actually 300 years old and just looks and acts like a 7 year old.



  • @el-shmiablo This is my fetish



  • @el-shmiablo But you'd be fine with violently torturing and murdering the same young looking girl because

    @TheMarcV said:

    I personally have never really had an issue with violence or gore, I can pretty easily separate fiction/reality so that extreme violence in games just doesn't really phase me

    So why can't you guys just do that with sexual scenarios too? The fictional characters in question you're sexually stimulating don't actually exist, same as the characters you've been without batting an eyelash snuffing the life out of. Not to mention body types are a thing, and it is kind of offensive to consider any grown woman who isn't curvy, stacked, and THICC to "look like a 7 year old". That's the kind of fucked up logic that got petites banned from doing porn in some countries, because men are judging them as looking too close to something they've developed a societal fear of finding attractive. It is fine if your personal preference is the female form doesn't excite you unless she's rocking double Ds, a big bubble butt, and wide child-bearing hips, but there's many other girls of differing body types out there who also need love, and if they're of age we shouldn't exclude them and body shame them for how they naturally grew. This is exactly the kinda shit that leads girls of those body types to feel they need breast implements to earn the right to be found attractive. Please stop sexually harassing them with your expectations of what constitutes a proper grown woman.



  • @el-shmiablo The only difference I see is that something like the torture scene in GTAV is explicitly trying to make the player uncomfortable while pervy minigames in weird Japanese games are just trying to entertain an audience I'm not a part of. I don't begrudge a game for not making me part of its demographic.



  • @mbun Wow that's... quite a leap of logic right there! Are you being serious??

    Going from "It's fucked up to fantasize about 7-year-olds" to "Stop sexually harassing them with your expectations of what constitutes a proper grown woman", errrr....

    Nobody here is saying that you shouldn't be attracted to small-frame girls or that they shouldn't be "sexually" represented in media. Nobody here said a girl has to "rock double Ds and a big bubble butt" to be attractive, what the hell are you even talking about?

    You're purposely omitting a very important part of his message: "looks and acts like a 7-year-old".

    That is the part that makes those games disturbing to most people. And don't pretend like that's not true, it's very obvious that this sort of fantasy is widespread in Japanese media, whether it's in anime, these games, their love hotels, etc.

    It's a very recurring theme for them to portray girls as innocent, shy, vulnerable, obedient and just overall childish, and at the same time sexualize them. Even when they're "rocking double Ds" like the Dead or Alive girls, they all have this childlike innocence.

    When you couple that with an underage appearance, then it becomes questionable. Sure, you can lie to yourself and say "Nuh uh, her official bio says she's 18", but we all know what's going on here.



  • What game can I torture a "7" year old, none because of censorship.


  • Banned

    You know what?

    0_1545102759634_2015-07-07-115309.jpg

    You're right.

    0_1545102803457_senran-kagura-intimacy-kafuru-featured.jpg

    There is absolutely no difference at all.

    0_1545102822937_srslywtfisthisshit.jpg

    This is all perfectly fine.



  • @mbun first of all I want to say that the tone of some people here is really despective (not you mbun) and I feel that's low even if I agree with the arguments, so I would say we should try to keep low blows out of the arguments.

    That said my problem with sexuality in games is not because of the content itself, but more because of context and tone.

    I don't have any issue with having some character sex appeal being used in a game or for suggestive content if it is well justified and not a core aspect of the experience, for instance I like Bayonetta or even Lollipop Chainsaw, however when there's a mini game specifically designed around groping characters or the whole premise of games like Gal Gun, yeah that makes me uncomfortable.

    On the side of violence, first I think it rarely reaches a similar point where the violence is so extreme that I have an issue with it, and second even when it does a lot of time it doesn't involve humans (ex Doom) or the context is such that I don't have as much of a hard time disassociating myself from the game, the parts of GTAV that disturbed me meet both of this criteria and I was very uncomfortable with them.

    I can't say that I'm knowledgeable about the specific examples you mention in there, and I can't help but agree that cases like that would be an unfortunate consequence and unfair to any woman found on that situation, that said I can't say I fully buy it as the reason for why everyone would find such content appealing. Most porn is related to power fantasies (at least that's my understanding from what I've seen of studies on the matter, certainly not an expert) and it is an unfortunate truth that child porn is a reality and there's a big market for it, and people that are looking to consume it, and I can't believe that it is completely separate from the market of some of the games in questions and that it can't contribute to feeding this sick fetishes (child porn to be specific), now I cannot say what percentage may fall on which side, I would like to think it is a very small percentage that falls on the child fetish side, but I can't really say for sure and that is where a lot of my discomfort with this comes from.

    With all that said, do I believe that this games making me uncomfortable mean they should be banned?

    No, I don't believe my believes on this have to be used to police content, but I'm perfectly ok with a private company taking what measures they find necessary to provide the content they find acceptable, I find it ridiculous to expect a company to be fully compliant to this simply because of a principle of some of the consumers.



  • So, there's a few things I want to touch on.

    I think everyone is in agreement here - none of us would want a game where you're doing sexually explicit things to a child. Yet there have been a few comments here that say censorship is never good, ever and frustration at some of the recent changes. What if someone did try to release a game with children involved in such a way? Should censorship step in then? Or should we be exposed to that as well, since nothing should ever be censored?

    Those "against" censorship in this thread would probably draw a line in the sand at some point too. For some, a brief sentence saying a character is actually a 200 year old god is enough context for them to bypass their looks and behavior but for many, it isn't. To many, it comes off as pedophilia or eerily close to that and it's hard to object to that when the character is being as child-like as possible.

    Different people are going to draw that line at different points but there's also a lot of slippery slope thought patterns that seem to be attached to it as well. I'm always opposed to that sort of fear-mongering (it's prevalent in politics) because the actions of now don't always lead to the ideas of tomorrow. Any time any sort of change or law is proposed, people will say it's the end of their way of life as they know it and they're usually wrong. If the censorship continues to increase and begins to affect things that don't involve basically the depiction of small children being groped, then sure, let's stand up for the right of expression.

    For me personally? I'd much rather shotgun a demon in the face than rub an anime girl for affection points - I'm sure some will say it boils down to that Western preference of violence over sex but the context matters quite a bit.



  • @el-shmiablo said in Censorship topic (out of the news thread):

    This is all perfectly fine.

    There's nothing wrong with being uncomfortable with images like that or even thinking they're offensive but imposing your morals on a title aimed at a demographic you couldn't possibly be further from helps nobody. Why should Americans be allowed to police how Japanese think? Should the Japanese be allowed to police our enjoyment of violent games too? The torture scene from GTAV was actually cut entirely in the Japanese release, just as one example.



  • @axel said:

    Going from "It's fucked up to fantasize about 7-year-olds"

    That's not what he said. He said they appear to be 7 years old to him, which is judging them based on a body type. That is directly implying those body types make a fully grown woman look as though she's a kid, and because that weirds them out, nobody should be allowed to view it sexually.

    You're purposely omitting a very important part of his message: "looks and acts like a 7-year-old".

    If you're hung up on the acting part, I don't know what to tell you. That's a whole separate conversation about policing people on how they're allowed to act. I'm personally not into the fake ditzy, cutesy acting types, but some girls obviously lean hard into that because there are guys who find it attractive, and I'm not going to judge either side for that. People have different ideals for personality in partners, and I certainly don't understand some of them, but I don't think people are wrong for liking tsunderes or whatever, even if that stuff is a bit silly.

    portray girls as innocent, shy, vulnerable, obedient and just overall childish, and at the same time sexualize them

    I don't see the problem with any of this if the fully grown, of age girls are choosing to act like this or just are naturally like this despite their age. If you're turning this to be about how men write female characters to act in some of these mediums for the sole sake of coming off as easy and vulnerable, that's another argument for another topic, and one I'd actually probably take the same side as you on. If it is justified for the character or in a game with a wide range of characters representing a wider spectrum of female forms, then I don't see this as a problem however.

    Being an adult doesn't mean you have to be super serious and mature all the time. You can still maintain a playful attitude, and depending on your life to the point can maintain shreds of innocence. Have a quote I like from C.S. Lewis:

    "Critics who treat 'adult' as a term of approval, instead of as a merely descriptive term, cannot be adult themselves. To be concerned about being grown up, to admire the grown up because it is grown up, to blush at the suspicion of being childish; these things are the marks of childhood and adolescence. And in childhood and adolescence they are, in moderation, healthy symptoms. Young things ought to want to grow. But to carry on into middle life or even into early manhood this concern about being adult is a mark of really arrested development. When I was ten, I read fairy tales in secret and would have been ashamed if I had been found doing so. Now that I am fifty I read them openly. When I became a man I put away childish things, including the fear of childishness and the desire to be very grown up."

    That is to say you aren't forced to stop having fun once you're an adult. Look at Kyle Bosman. He's constantly trying to stir up the ordinary and mundane by making little bits and games with it. There's nothing wrong with that. He's choosing to make fun in his life this way while maintaining his adult responsibilities. Likewise, if people choose to act a certain way in the bedroom that makes them feel more comfortable, who are we to judge? Long as all parties involved are consenting adults, it really is none of our business what they're doing in there.

    Naturally those types of people wouldn't mind equal representation in media, and sure there's always the scare of these kinds of things making their way into the wrong hands and leading to underage people experiencing things they shouldn't and filling their heads with ideas they're not mature enough to handle, but this is and always has been a department where game ratings and good old fashioned parenting come in to prevent this, not censorship. Likewise, it is just as easy for a kid who's parents aren't on point to get their hands on overly violent video games currently, and the potential consequences of that are much harsher in the long run since once someone is dead that's it. But our society takes that chance and trusts parents to watch their kids closer. Should be no different with sexual media. For adults but controlled to keep away from kids.

    Sure, you can lie to yourself and say "Nuh uh, her official bio says she's 18", but we all know what's going on here.

    So what will you say to the real life fully grown women with those body types who choose to act that way? I mean, when it isn't being exposed to or harming actual children, I'm not going to go around policing people on how they're allowed to act. Personally, I think those people are just better at separating fantasy from reality than you.

    @iboshow said:

    What game can I torture a "7" year old, none because of censorship.

    True, most games don't allow harming children, because people rightfully find it disturbing. When really, all violence against fellow human beings should be seen as disturbing but people are so desensitized to it from media. There's definitely games with underage characters being harmed by the world around them though. Ellie is originally 14 in The Last of Us and goes through all kinds of twisted shit due to the setting of that franchise.

    @El-Shmiablo said:

    You know what? You're right. There is absolutely no difference at all.

    Not familiar with those games. Just looks like random kink stuff to me. Second pic even says she's a "mature young woman" which implies she's of age even if her body type appears otherwise to you.

    @bard91 said:

    the tone of some people here is really despective (not you mbun) and I feel that's low even if I agree with the arguments, so I would say we should try to keep low blows out of the arguments

    I can agree with that. Sorry if I come off that way. Sometimes I get irked reading stuff people say when I've had close friends through my life who have dealt with the kind of complexes that develop when the body you're naturally given doesn't match up with societies standards for acceptable beauty and get a little heated trying to make people understand why the things they're saying can actually be very negative and emotionally damaging to such individuals who just want to be treated like anyone else and not feel like people are wrong for feeling attracted to them or they're not allowed to maintain adult relationships.

    my problem with sexuality in games is not because of the content itself, but more because of context and tone

    Always a case by case basis that's hard to judge from the outside, so I try not to be overly judgmental on this, but I can definitely agree on this front. I've seen things that do it from a very disrespectful, offensive standpoint where the characters are written to be nothing more than sexual objects, and sure that's sometimes the nature of what's essentially porn, but even in that field I think it is important to craft your characters to be less one dimensional.

    I don't have any issue with having some character sex appeal being used in a game or for suggestive content if it is well justified and not a core aspect of the experience, for instance I like Bayonetta or even Lollipop Chainsaw, however when there's a mini game specifically designed around groping characters or the whole premise of games like Gal Gun, yeah that makes me uncomfortable.

    Exactly! Couldn't agree with you more. Only thing I'd add is I still see games like Gal Gun as just dumb fun, but I'd hope the creators of such games would equally provide for consumers who would want the same dumb fun with male characters instead. I think often those games don't happen, because in the west at least there seems to be a much smaller audience for it currently, but Otome games sell pretty damn well in Japan, so I think it could be big here too if people got adjusted to the concept and we all stopped making fun of each other for daring to enjoy games like this.

    On the side of violence, first I think it rarely reaches a similar point where the violence is so extreme that I have an issue with it

    The recent examples I can think of would be the modern Tomb Raider series that people described as "torture porn" and even worse that one extremely violent Last of Us II Trailer that didn't land the way they expected it to with people I guess? I forget what event that was shown at, but that was too much for the general public imo. One thing if you buy a mature game and see that, but you shouldn't see that level of violence during a press conference.

    doesn't involve humans (ex Doom)

    Specifically in the case of Doom, we know we're slaying evil demons, but even for stuff like Monster Hunter I get a little sad if the justifications for hunting the wild monsters isn't there, although thankfully they usually are. I guess another example would be James Cameron's Avatar where humans are okay obliterating the Na'vi for their resources because they're just seen as monster savages. That movie clearly paints the humans as the bad guys for good reason there, which is league above most media involving humans versus nonhumans.

    it is an unfortunate truth that child porn is a reality and there's a big market for it, and people that are looking to consume it

    Unfortunate is an understatement. There's no forgiving people who perpetuate that business. I hate to spin your point, which I agree with, this way, but murder is also a reality in our world. People murder one another every day, and overly violent media does in some part enable this behavior from people by normalizing violent acts. We can do our best to control it with age ratings, but at the end of the day there's lots of factors in how people develop mentally, so it is going to happen. Even if we censored and prohibited all violent media, people would still murder one another, and the same goes for this kind of sexual media.

    I'm perfectly ok with a private company taking what measures they find necessary to provide the content they find acceptable

    I think the most important side here is that they're doing this to placate an audience who disapproves of this type of media which is ultimately more profitable for them than allowing these experiences on their platform. Also, I think there's an inherent difference to getting upset at Sony for not themselves making these kind of games they aren't personally interested in versus simply allowing developers who are to release their vision of their games on their platform. Nobody is telling Sony to start making lewd games. I take issue with Sony policing other devs on what they should be making.

    @SabotageTheTruth said:

    What if someone did try to release a game with children involved in such a way? Should censorship step in then?

    No, because those devs should be locked up for the rest of their lives and any existing version of that content should be destroyed as soon as possible. Real children should never be exposed to that sort of stuff. I get uncomfortable when child actors have to be exposed to fictional situations like that in television and movies, but that's another topic too.

    Those "against" censorship in this thread would probably draw a line in the sand at some point too.

    I draw a line with stuff, especially sexual stuff shoved into a game that didn't market itself as such, but I never think censorship is the solve. I think critics and users flaming the devs for what they've done is the solution. Let their vision come out, but if it is a really bad vision, let people flame it and let the devs lose alot of money for how poorly their game performs for pulling a bait and switch. The only censorship I'm personally on board for is promotional censorship. Censored trailers, censored box art, and so on for both overly violent and overly sexual games as to not expose people to things they don't want to see in passing. In the case of box art though, it is good for devs to be mindful and offer things such as printable / reversible covers or special editions not offered in normal marketplaces for people who do want the raunchy covers.

    there's also a lot of slippery slope thought patterns that seem to be attached to it as well. I'm always opposed to that sort of fear-mongering (it's prevalent in politics) because the actions of now don't always lead to the ideas of tomorrow

    I agree, but in the reverse line of thought as you take that. I don't think overly violent media on it's own leads to an increase of murdering psychopaths, and I don't think overly sexual media of young looking characters on it's own leads to an increase of pedophiles. It is all about context, warning labels, control of where the product lands, proper societal discussion on the important topics, etc.

    For me personally? I'd much rather shotgun a demon in the face than rub an anime girl for affection points

    Same, but I'd also rather pat a cute anime girl on the head than mow down waves of human opponents in a war game. Like you said, the context is very important.



  • @mbun said in Censorship topic (out of the news thread):

    Only thing I'd add is I still see games like Gal Gun as just dumb fun, but I'd hope the creators of such games would equally provide for consumers who would want the same dumb fun with male characters instead. I think often those games don't happen, because in the west at least there seems to be a much smaller audience for it currently, but Otome games sell pretty damn well in Japan

    I love Gal*Gun, it's a really fun little game and yes, its aesthetics are adorable and that's a part of the appeal. I'd just as quickly snap up a version shooting males, but it would have to keep its cuteness, which would ultimately mean either some kind of chibi thing going on, or the guys your shooting still looking rather young and childlike.



  • @mbun Please, stop twisting my words and extrapolating.

    I never talked about real people who choose to act one way or another, I never talked about policing anybody's behaviour, I never talked about what people should do in their bedroom, I never talked about "adulthood", I never even said whether I was for or against censoring those games.

    I was simply addressing your rant towards @El-Shmiablo that I felt was out of line and had nothing to do with what he said.

    You say I'm "hung up on the acting part", but you clearly got hung up on the looking part, so all I did was explain what he meant in his message. Which is (I assume, correct me if I'm wrong) that creating fictional characters for the sole purpose of being masturbated at (upon? towards?), depicting them as young and vulnerable (whether it's visually, through their clothes, attitude, etc.), and pretending it's all ok because they're "officially" over 18 is extremely disingenuous. We all know they feed into various fetishes that are very widespread in Japanese culture, let's not pretend there's anything more to it.

    That's it, that's all he meant in an exaggerated way. Nothing about body-shaming, sexual harassment towards petite girls and whatnot.