Censorship topic (out of the news thread)



  • Interesting discussion...

    Are there games that made me uncomfortable? Sure...

    Something like This War of Mine for example. Depicting a gruesome reality in a war torn country endangering "my" characters, who i got quite attached to during the game. But I would consider this a "good uncomfortable". It is meant to make me feel this way to deliver a message and it works great.

    Another example would be Alien Isolation. Man, this game is so tense. I got so uncomfortable just standing in a dark hallway, hearing all the creepy sounds around me, fearing the alien every step of the way. I had to stop every now and then, just to calm my nerves. And i loved it for that. So another example for "good uncomfortable".

    Regarding "bad uncomfortable"?

    Sometimes violence in games might be to much or in bad taste. Same way racism, sexism and other "isms" might be celebrated in a game and not depicted as aweful. That usually doesn't bother me. I'm an adult and can decide for myself if i want to continue playing such a game or even buy it in the first place. As long, as it doesn't break the law, there is no need to ban or censor the game. People (including developers) can have all kinds of stupid opinions (hey americans... happy with your president? ;-) ), but I don't have to agree with them and I can decide to don't even listen to them. So when a game does something, which rubs me morally the wrong way, I just don't buy it or stop playing. Best message you can send to any developer... don't give them your money.

    With sexual content, including all kinds of fetishes i usually don't have any problem. It is a fantasy and if this kind of fantasy excites you, then you do you. I even like sexual content in games... it is a nice diversion from the ever present violence in games and like i wrote earlier... sexuality is great and should not be taboo.

    Where it gets uncomfortable for me personally is the depiction of rape or sex with children as something good, so topics which are in real life not legal for a good reason. I understand, no real human is harmed in a game and it is still "just a fantasy", but the message rubs me the wrong way. Some japanese rpgs really test my boundaries in this way sometimes.

    I wish there would be a reliable process to define what content in games is still legal and what has to be restricted (for children or even adults). But again, no reason for censorship. Ban what is really illegal and allow everything else. Just limit access for children by helping parents to make an informed decision. But as an adult I want to be able to decide for myself and have the option to play the game as it was meant to be played (again: as long as it doesn't do something illegal). If we start with censorship, then there is no way to predict where it will be going. Today it might be just some "sexual content" but tomorrow? See youtube policies regarding "undesirable" content. But you could argue the same way for the decision what is legal and illegal (because humans are involved and we know how "great" the legal process works sometimes).

    Still, I hate censored games and usually won't buy them.



  • @guthwulf said:

    Today it might be just some "sexual content"

    And today isn't even just that. Look at China. They've censored Winnie the Pooh for goodness sake!



  • @mbun They've censored Winnie literally because he was compared to the president in a meme of him walking with Barack Obama during a meeting.

    Also I would appreciate if in the future when you reply to me you not cherry pick quotes from my post that make it seem like I am "bullying" anime fans or fans of kusoge games. I know it doesn't help your argument to include the parts of my post where I specifically state I enjoy fanservice and hentai, but you aren't doing yourself any favours by being that disingenuous and trying to strawman me into something I am not.

    As a fan of anime I am allowed to be critical of it. I do not need to force myself to be naive enough to actually believe that, despite having the body of a child, mannerisms of a child, and generally being child-like in every way, that just because she is "officially over 18 the creator said so" that these characters are not meant to pander directly to loli fetishism.



  • @el-shmiablo said:

    I know it doesn't help your argument to include the parts of my post where I specifically state I enjoy fanservice and hentai

    I don't think that matters when you act the way you act regardless of it. Equivalent of a racist saying they have a black friend.

    As a fan of anime I am allowed to be critical of it.

    Yes.

    just because she is "officially over 18 the creator said so" that these characters are not meant to pander directly to loli fetishism

    Again, I'm not talking about Doujins that take known underage characters and apparently "age them up" even though you wouldn't be able to tell the difference. Those things are banned from sites for very good reason. We're talking about when there's a flat chested anime character next to one who's chest defies the laws of gravity and you give people who dare to enjoy the flat chested one shit and liken them to people who are abusive to and dangerous around actual children, who deserve to be removed from society and possibly put down depending on their past actions. Have you ever noticed how you don't have a problem with the big breasted ones even if they act the exact same as the other one? It is extra fucked up when you consider girls develop way before they turn 18, so really there should be no difference between the two body types. If you're questioning one, you should be questioning both.



  • @mbun
    Can you please stop with the strawmans? I'm not talking about doijins either. I'm literally talking about the games that have been censored, or games that feature lewd content with loli characters.
    I have not once compared loli fetishists to actual pedophiles. If you think that I have, then I am sorry but those are your projections and not mine.
    I think I'm done. You're clearly not interested in participating in this discussion and instead are just going to continue with your victim complex



  • @mbun said in Censorship topic (out of the news thread):

    I'm getting mixed messages on what you want from me here.

    I want you to re-read every message from the top and realize you've clearly misinterpreted them and over-reacted. Stop lecturing and giving bad intentions to people when they clearly have none. Stop changing the context and topic of discussion and cherry-picking parts or even single words from messages whenever it suits your needs.

    But clearly you're not gonna stop, so I'm done.



  • @el-shmiablo said in Censorship topic (out of the news thread):

    I'm literally talking about the games that have been censored, or games that feature lewd content with loli characters.

    All you've said so far is that you don't believe the age the characters are claimed to be, and you haven't done any job justifying why beyond Body Type or personality.

    I have not once compared loli fetishists to actual pedophiles. If you think that I have, then I am sorry but those are your projections and not mine.

    just projections apparently

    Projections huh?

    You're clearly not interested in participating in this discussion and instead are just going to continue with your victim complex

    You clearly aren't intending to change your offensive behavior either, since you still reply with stuff like

    beating off to underage anime girls

    to try and sway people on allowing you to body shame grown women and the people who find them attractive.

    @Axel said:

    I want you to re-read every message from the top and realize you've clearly misinterpreted them and over-reacted.

    I've read them. I've reread them. I've read between them. Unless you can point out where and why you feel I have overreacted, there's nothing more I can do for you. You left your arguments, and I've responded to them fairly and as clearly as I can without you pointing out specific parts for me to be even clearer about. I feel bad that you've gotten mixed up defending someone who shows no remorse and clearly intends to keep acting this way. The only reason I won't respond to every single line of something you say is that it would make this even unnecessarily longer, and even when I did respond to what you wanted me to respond to, it just made you more unimaginably upset. If you disagree with me, that's a take. I'm not playing games or twisting words as you're making me out to. I'm responding to topics as part of a larger discussion.

    Edit: Either way, I do feel this has gotten down to a personal level, and I regret that the heated topic took us there. I very much cannot complain about having my personal character attacked (seriously tho, I'm not trying to twist anybody's words, I just want us to discuss our opinions on this stuff as clear as possible) while I present @El-Shmiablo 's actions the way they have come off from my perspective, but all I can do is promise that going forward I am going to try my hardest not to hold any sort of lingering grudge towards him. Fair warning, that might be tested if he keeps acting as he has previously though.

    And to you @Axel I've tried my best to explain why I feel this way and assure you that this isn't some kind of deflection or whatever. Tried to even directly address what you think he meant and express why I disagree with that take on it to no avail sadly it seems. Even though you see this his way, your actions have not been the same as his, and for that reason I bear you zero ill will currently or going forward and take this as more of a misunderstanding between the two of us that hopefully we can work out or just let go eventually. You're your own person and allowed to believe what you will, but from my perspective there's no outward beef in your direction.

    This is a sensitive topic of many facets, so I hope we can stay patient with one another while trying to discuss our opinions.



  • I think, end of the day, this is Sony's, Nintendo's, Microsoft's, Steam's, GOG's, Epic game store's, etc. call to make. These are their platforms and if they don't want to carry a game for any reason it's their call. We might not like it or agree with it but it's their right to control what they sell to the public.

    I agree this decision seems like a business one where they think they will gain more good will by censoring or banning these games then by the money they would get from selling them.

    Maybe this is a bad idea, maybe this will blow up in their faces as a vast sea of players stop buying Sony's products and go to the services that cater to these titles. I personally don't think that's going to be the case. I think some gamers will go to other platforms but I don't think it'll hurt Sony much in the long run. Could this lead to more censorship, maybe. Do I fear they are going to censor the next COD or GTA, 100% NO. Those games make too much money, these games that are being censored don't.



  • @el-shmiablo I want to say that I am surprised that you would make such a disingenuous argument. However, I can't say that as it is perfectly in line with the character you clearly have shown yourself to be. I would go more in-depth, but Mbun has done an excellent job dismantling your "argument".

    @Axel Do you know what is also quite a leap of logic? Going from discussing things that are uncomfortable from shocking/unnerving content and talking about fondling a prepubescent child, a clearly illegal act that would not be acceptable anywhere. Not surprisingly, this content is not in the games that have been needlessly censored by Sony (y'know, the reason for this conversation to begin with) - the majority of which had already been approved by the ESRB and other rating boards.

    @SabotageTheTruth If a game involved pedophilic content the game would never be released due to the content being inherently illegal and those behind it would be placed behind bars as they rightfully should be.



  • @luka Care to explain what about my argument is disingenuous, or are you just going to keep that intentionally vague so we can keep pretending I'm so mean to anime fans despite being one?



  • @Luka, you wrote:

    @SabotageTheTruth If a game involved pedophilic content the game would never be released due to the content being inherently illegal and those behind it would be placed behind bars as they rightfully should be.

    I wish that where true but it isn't. For example some japanese adult / eroge games explicitly are depicting sex with minors, rape fanatasies or incest. Illusion comes to mind (RapeLay, BattleRaper, SchoolMate and more).

    Yeah these titles never got officially released in a western market, but even their newer and officially (in digital stores) international released titles like VR Kanojo or Honey Select fulfill some of these fantasies or at least strongly suggest them.

    In VR Kanojo you can have sex with a young schoolgirl and the game is on steam (with an uncensor patch on their official website for the steam version or an uncensored version in other digital stores). Yeah... you could argue that she might be over 18 and a university / college girl (decide for yourself on their steam website) ... but c'mon... the fantasy here is clear.

    And even Honey Select: Honey Select has the best, most detailed and flexible character editor in any game, outshining every single RPG or Sims Title ever released... Better yet, you can easily share your custom characters with other users who then can import them into their game and can do all sorts of sexual, rough and fetish activities with them. Even in Virtual Reality (btw... big uncanny valley, when your character suddenly stands in front of you lifesize, breathing and moving.)

    Here one of my characters (personally i only care for the character editor, since creating chars is fun):

    Honey Select

    My character is (hopefully) clearly adult, but everybody can also easily create characters looking like young children (down to something like 6+ years of age) and "play" with these or share them with the community. If you search for Honey Select Characters, you will find plenty of these. And in these cases nobody claims that they only look young but are in truth over 1000 years old dragons or some other magical bs... I will not link anything of these characters here since I find their existense in such a game disgusting but it is there and in an official internationally released digital game.



  • @el-shmiablo disingenuous (dĭsˌĭn-jĕnˈyo͞o-əs)►
    adj. Not straightforward or candid; insincere or calculating.

    I clearly explained my issues when referring to Axel right below. I suggest you read:
    "Going from discussing things that are uncomfortable from shocking/unnerving content and talking about fondling a prepubescent child, a clearly illegal act that would not be acceptable anywhere. Not surprisingly, this content is not in the games that have been needlessly censored by Sony (y'know, the reason for this conversation to begin with) - the majority of which had already been approved by the ESRB and other rating boards."

    You know full well the discussion of the censored content here, yet you continued to make disingenuous remarks to prepubescent children as some inane "gotcha" moment, which Mbun already dismantled and rightfully so. Never did I suggest that you are "being mean to anime fans", but thank you for the strawman.

    @Guthwulf I was referring to the west, not Japan. Apologies if that was not clear. Different countries have different laws and while I find it disturbing that such content is allowed in Japan, it is thankfully lesser and lesser each year with the growing crackdown on it by the Japanese Government. As for the games you mentioned, I feel the need to bring up a few points:

    1.) There are fetishists who enjoy that... disturbing content. Whether it is grown men acting like infants wearing diapers, or adult women who feel the need to act like little girls. Hell, this isn't even a "japanese" problem as some might try to state. One of the most searched terms for porn has been "teen" for decades. This certainly has not changed in current year. If you want a quick laugh, I suggest you watch this video from Yakuza Kiwami 2.

    2.) There are plenty of adult women who look like kids and kids who look like adult women. I would suggest you look up Cheedon0904, who is 29 but looks no older than 15-16, Marina Nagasawa who is 23 but looks like an elementary schooler, or 十早z who is a 35 y/o woman who looks like a middle schooler (just to name a few). There are hundreds of thousands like them (and the same goes for men). Whether you are attracted to that or not, I don't particularly care. However, immediately assuming/stating that it is "pedophilic" is a bit inane.

    3.) Artstyle/Makeup can vastly change one's perception of the age of a character. In most cases, there is very little difference in the aesthetics of drawn/animated girls from age 13 to 30. Most of the ways characters are easily differentiated is either due to changing bust size or the character's clothes.



  • @luka said in Censorship topic (out of the news thread):

    @Guthwulf I was referring to the west, not Japan. Apologies if that was not clear. Different countries have different laws and while I find it disturbing that such content is allowed in Japan, it is thankfully lesser and lesser each year

    No need for apologies... I don't see where we have big differences in opinion. My only point with these examples was: law in western countries is also "behind the curve". The two titles I mentioned are officially released in the western market and neither forbidden nor bannend. And they were only 2 examples of many games. As always... written law needs practiced law to interprete where the red line in games really is. And when nobody starts an actual case at court there is no chance to test the law.

    @luka said in Censorship topic (out of the news thread):

    1.) There are fetishists who enjoy that... disturbing content. Whether it is grown men acting like infants wearing diapers, or adult women who feel the need to act like little girls.

    Nothing wrong with fetishists or all kinds of different fetishes including "teen", "bdsm" and other stuff... you do you and I myself enjoy some of these as well. But there is a difference in a "fetish" and an act which the law explicit defines as criminal (sex with minors for example). So the depiction of these acts as something positive (not criminal) in media including games is something worth discussing and for me somewhat disturbing. The message (this is a good thing) and possible consequences (the actual transfer to sexual abuse of minors) is what disturbs me. And yes I know it still is "just a fantasy" and we all know from killer games discussions... a healthy adult should be able to distinguish between fantasy and real life.

    @luka said in Censorship topic (out of the news thread):

    2.) There are plenty of adult women who look like kids and kids who look like adult women. I would suggest you look up Cheedon0904, who is 29 but looks no older than 15-16, Marina Nagasawa who is 23 but looks like an elementary schooler, or 十早z who is a 35 y/o woman who looks like a middle schooler (just to name a few). There are hundreds of thousands like them (and the same goes for men). Whether you are attracted to that or not, I don't particularly care. However, immediately assuming/stating that it is "pedophilic" is a bit inane.

    I didn't do that (assuming / stating...). And nothing against adults "looking like kids". They are still adults and there is nothing wrong with being attracted to them. So yes... you are completely right.

    @luka said in Censorship topic (out of the news thread):

    3.) Artstyle/Makeup can vastly change one's perception of the age of a character. In most cases, there is very little difference in the aesthetics of drawn/animated girls from age 13 to 30. Most of the ways characters are easily differentiated is either due to changing bust size or the character's clothes.

    agreed...



  • @guthwulf

    The point I was trying to make is that the characters in games like HoneySelect or VR Kanojo can easily be seen as adults. Those games (especially HoneySelect) are sandboxes that allow for a wide variety of fetishes to be shown/used/explored, this includes younger looking characters as there are adults who are into the teenage look, or are attracted to petite adult woman. The idea that the people who do the latter two are pedophiles (which is what I had thought you were referring to with your last paragraph) is a bit presumptuous. My mistake if that isn't what you had meant, I had just woken up when I posted that.



  • @luka said in Censorship topic (out of the news thread):

    @guthwulf

    The point I was trying to make is that the characters in games like HoneySelect or VR Kanojo can easily be seen as adults. Those games (especially HoneySelect) are sandboxes that allow for a wide variety of fetishes to be shown/used/explored, this includes younger looking characters as there are adults who are into the teenage look, or are attracted to petite adult woman. The idea that the people who do the latter two are pedophiles (which is what I had thought you were referring to with your last paragraph) is a bit presumptuous. My mistake if that isn't what you had meant, I had just woken up when I posted that.

    No problem. My english is not the best and that might also be a factor for misunderstandings.

    To your point: Sure everything "can" be seen as adults, tousand years old fantasy beings or adult npc actors in a roleplay. But as always it is not black & white. There is a grey zone between extremes which is worth discussing. Some cases within there (see my examples) disturb me personally. Others (like a Loli race in a fantasy rpg or young looking characters in something like a waifu collector) I find totally fine. The difference for me is the received "message" (of the game) and the "intention" (of the player). Both points are somewhat subjective (therefore grey zone). And i wanted to show examples in the western market with allow or at least strongly suggest the interpretation that - for example - sex with a child is positive and even desirable.

    For me VR Kanojo depicts fairly obvious sex with a child (in this case young school girl). In porn movies there is at least still the difference between character vs. actor and also the explicit stated intention that the depicted character is at least 18 and therefore "barely legal" ("teen porn" usually explicit states that for exactly these legal reasons in the title, description or dialogue). VR Kanojo leaves the intention for the characters open and all the signs point for me to the the opposite of an "maybe just 18 but at least legal age".

    Something similar with Honey Select whose editor allows (without mods) characters who look like 6 year old girls. Here the "intention" of the player who creates and shares a character is more important than the games "message" (sex with my characters is positive and desirable). Sure, many of these "young looking" characters might be intended as young looking "barely legal" adult characters or as magical beings with an even longer lifespan. But the game also allows the other intention (creating and sharing a young looking character as underaged kid for the purpose of having sex with it).

    So both games for me are examples of officially in the western market released games who depict or at least strongly suggest exactly the kind of acts, who you claimed would never be allowed in the west. That was all...



  • @guthwulf I would disagree with that final statement. Pedophilic games are still not allowed in the west. As we had already gone over, one's perception of something is vastly different than the reality. You are perceiving the games as containing pedophilic content, despite the reality of the situation that it doesn't - if it was the game would be banned for sale in the west. You continue to claim that the character from VR Kanojo is a "young school girl", despite already showing that a.) the artstyle can greatly affect how old someone looks and b.) actual adult women who can look as young or younger exist in real life, and c.) there is many who enjoy teenage (18+)/School Girl fetishes as shown by the yearly PornHub reports (among others). That does not indicate a child, nor does that indicate pedophilia. The same goes for the creation of characters in Honey Select whose creation tools could allow you to create a vast array of horrifying monstrosities that you could "have sex" with, or pose in the character studio (which seems to be a highly popular thing, the more research I do on this particular title).



  • @luka
    There's been a lot of back and forth on this issue but I was just wondering (don't know if you stated it before) but how do you feel about Sony's right to control what they sell to the public? Regardless of what these games do/don't do show/don't show it's their right to control what they provide to their customers, no?



  • @themarcv
    While it is Sony's decision, it feels extremely odd for the sudden heel turn on this, especially since it seems like alot of developers didn't get the memo until the last minute, or requiring Japanese devs (and I assume devs from Poland, or Ukraine, ect) to submit to a inquiry, and in a language that said devs might not have a major grasp on.
    I mean hell Omega Labyrinth Z is the perfect example of just how out of nowhere the news came to devs, as the games translation was about finished, had all the marketing material ready to go, was rated by the ESRB, and then out of nowhere they have to cancel it as a last minute change happens at Sony.



  • @themarcv Pretty much what DMCMaster stated. Add to the fact that many of the games that are being censored were already M rated games, featuring content much less graphical, violent, or sexual than games that are already on the platform (Witcher 3, Red Dead Redemption 2, The Last of Us, etc).



  • I'm glad Sony is starting to curate their store more to get rid of the trash. Hopefully MS and Nintendo will follow suit.