Censorship topic (out of the news thread)



  • @el-shmiablo I want to say that I am surprised that you would make such a disingenuous argument. However, I can't say that as it is perfectly in line with the character you clearly have shown yourself to be. I would go more in-depth, but Mbun has done an excellent job dismantling your "argument".

    @Axel Do you know what is also quite a leap of logic? Going from discussing things that are uncomfortable from shocking/unnerving content and talking about fondling a prepubescent child, a clearly illegal act that would not be acceptable anywhere. Not surprisingly, this content is not in the games that have been needlessly censored by Sony (y'know, the reason for this conversation to begin with) - the majority of which had already been approved by the ESRB and other rating boards.

    @SabotageTheTruth If a game involved pedophilic content the game would never be released due to the content being inherently illegal and those behind it would be placed behind bars as they rightfully should be.



  • @luka Care to explain what about my argument is disingenuous, or are you just going to keep that intentionally vague so we can keep pretending I'm so mean to anime fans despite being one?



  • @Luka, you wrote:

    @SabotageTheTruth If a game involved pedophilic content the game would never be released due to the content being inherently illegal and those behind it would be placed behind bars as they rightfully should be.

    I wish that where true but it isn't. For example some japanese adult / eroge games explicitly are depicting sex with minors, rape fanatasies or incest. Illusion comes to mind (RapeLay, BattleRaper, SchoolMate and more).

    Yeah these titles never got officially released in a western market, but even their newer and officially (in digital stores) international released titles like VR Kanojo or Honey Select fulfill some of these fantasies or at least strongly suggest them.

    In VR Kanojo you can have sex with a young schoolgirl and the game is on steam (with an uncensor patch on their official website for the steam version or an uncensored version in other digital stores). Yeah... you could argue that she might be over 18 and a university / college girl (decide for yourself on their steam website) ... but c'mon... the fantasy here is clear.

    And even Honey Select: Honey Select has the best, most detailed and flexible character editor in any game, outshining every single RPG or Sims Title ever released... Better yet, you can easily share your custom characters with other users who then can import them into their game and can do all sorts of sexual, rough and fetish activities with them. Even in Virtual Reality (btw... big uncanny valley, when your character suddenly stands in front of you lifesize, breathing and moving.)

    Here one of my characters (personally i only care for the character editor, since creating chars is fun):

    Honey Select

    My character is (hopefully) clearly adult, but everybody can also easily create characters looking like young children (down to something like 6+ years of age) and "play" with these or share them with the community. If you search for Honey Select Characters, you will find plenty of these. And in these cases nobody claims that they only look young but are in truth over 1000 years old dragons or some other magical bs... I will not link anything of these characters here since I find their existense in such a game disgusting but it is there and in an official internationally released digital game.



  • @el-shmiablo disingenuous (dĭsˌĭn-jĕnˈyo͞o-əs)►
    adj. Not straightforward or candid; insincere or calculating.

    I clearly explained my issues when referring to Axel right below. I suggest you read:
    "Going from discussing things that are uncomfortable from shocking/unnerving content and talking about fondling a prepubescent child, a clearly illegal act that would not be acceptable anywhere. Not surprisingly, this content is not in the games that have been needlessly censored by Sony (y'know, the reason for this conversation to begin with) - the majority of which had already been approved by the ESRB and other rating boards."

    You know full well the discussion of the censored content here, yet you continued to make disingenuous remarks to prepubescent children as some inane "gotcha" moment, which Mbun already dismantled and rightfully so. Never did I suggest that you are "being mean to anime fans", but thank you for the strawman.

    @Guthwulf I was referring to the west, not Japan. Apologies if that was not clear. Different countries have different laws and while I find it disturbing that such content is allowed in Japan, it is thankfully lesser and lesser each year with the growing crackdown on it by the Japanese Government. As for the games you mentioned, I feel the need to bring up a few points:

    1.) There are fetishists who enjoy that... disturbing content. Whether it is grown men acting like infants wearing diapers, or adult women who feel the need to act like little girls. Hell, this isn't even a "japanese" problem as some might try to state. One of the most searched terms for porn has been "teen" for decades. This certainly has not changed in current year. If you want a quick laugh, I suggest you watch this video from Yakuza Kiwami 2.

    2.) There are plenty of adult women who look like kids and kids who look like adult women. I would suggest you look up Cheedon0904, who is 29 but looks no older than 15-16, Marina Nagasawa who is 23 but looks like an elementary schooler, or 十早z who is a 35 y/o woman who looks like a middle schooler (just to name a few). There are hundreds of thousands like them (and the same goes for men). Whether you are attracted to that or not, I don't particularly care. However, immediately assuming/stating that it is "pedophilic" is a bit inane.

    3.) Artstyle/Makeup can vastly change one's perception of the age of a character. In most cases, there is very little difference in the aesthetics of drawn/animated girls from age 13 to 30. Most of the ways characters are easily differentiated is either due to changing bust size or the character's clothes.



  • @luka said in Censorship topic (out of the news thread):

    @Guthwulf I was referring to the west, not Japan. Apologies if that was not clear. Different countries have different laws and while I find it disturbing that such content is allowed in Japan, it is thankfully lesser and lesser each year

    No need for apologies... I don't see where we have big differences in opinion. My only point with these examples was: law in western countries is also "behind the curve". The two titles I mentioned are officially released in the western market and neither forbidden nor bannend. And they were only 2 examples of many games. As always... written law needs practiced law to interprete where the red line in games really is. And when nobody starts an actual case at court there is no chance to test the law.

    @luka said in Censorship topic (out of the news thread):

    1.) There are fetishists who enjoy that... disturbing content. Whether it is grown men acting like infants wearing diapers, or adult women who feel the need to act like little girls.

    Nothing wrong with fetishists or all kinds of different fetishes including "teen", "bdsm" and other stuff... you do you and I myself enjoy some of these as well. But there is a difference in a "fetish" and an act which the law explicit defines as criminal (sex with minors for example). So the depiction of these acts as something positive (not criminal) in media including games is something worth discussing and for me somewhat disturbing. The message (this is a good thing) and possible consequences (the actual transfer to sexual abuse of minors) is what disturbs me. And yes I know it still is "just a fantasy" and we all know from killer games discussions... a healthy adult should be able to distinguish between fantasy and real life.

    @luka said in Censorship topic (out of the news thread):

    2.) There are plenty of adult women who look like kids and kids who look like adult women. I would suggest you look up Cheedon0904, who is 29 but looks no older than 15-16, Marina Nagasawa who is 23 but looks like an elementary schooler, or 十早z who is a 35 y/o woman who looks like a middle schooler (just to name a few). There are hundreds of thousands like them (and the same goes for men). Whether you are attracted to that or not, I don't particularly care. However, immediately assuming/stating that it is "pedophilic" is a bit inane.

    I didn't do that (assuming / stating...). And nothing against adults "looking like kids". They are still adults and there is nothing wrong with being attracted to them. So yes... you are completely right.

    @luka said in Censorship topic (out of the news thread):

    3.) Artstyle/Makeup can vastly change one's perception of the age of a character. In most cases, there is very little difference in the aesthetics of drawn/animated girls from age 13 to 30. Most of the ways characters are easily differentiated is either due to changing bust size or the character's clothes.

    agreed...



  • @guthwulf

    The point I was trying to make is that the characters in games like HoneySelect or VR Kanojo can easily be seen as adults. Those games (especially HoneySelect) are sandboxes that allow for a wide variety of fetishes to be shown/used/explored, this includes younger looking characters as there are adults who are into the teenage look, or are attracted to petite adult woman. The idea that the people who do the latter two are pedophiles (which is what I had thought you were referring to with your last paragraph) is a bit presumptuous. My mistake if that isn't what you had meant, I had just woken up when I posted that.



  • @luka said in Censorship topic (out of the news thread):

    @guthwulf

    The point I was trying to make is that the characters in games like HoneySelect or VR Kanojo can easily be seen as adults. Those games (especially HoneySelect) are sandboxes that allow for a wide variety of fetishes to be shown/used/explored, this includes younger looking characters as there are adults who are into the teenage look, or are attracted to petite adult woman. The idea that the people who do the latter two are pedophiles (which is what I had thought you were referring to with your last paragraph) is a bit presumptuous. My mistake if that isn't what you had meant, I had just woken up when I posted that.

    No problem. My english is not the best and that might also be a factor for misunderstandings.

    To your point: Sure everything "can" be seen as adults, tousand years old fantasy beings or adult npc actors in a roleplay. But as always it is not black & white. There is a grey zone between extremes which is worth discussing. Some cases within there (see my examples) disturb me personally. Others (like a Loli race in a fantasy rpg or young looking characters in something like a waifu collector) I find totally fine. The difference for me is the received "message" (of the game) and the "intention" (of the player). Both points are somewhat subjective (therefore grey zone). And i wanted to show examples in the western market with allow or at least strongly suggest the interpretation that - for example - sex with a child is positive and even desirable.

    For me VR Kanojo depicts fairly obvious sex with a child (in this case young school girl). In porn movies there is at least still the difference between character vs. actor and also the explicit stated intention that the depicted character is at least 18 and therefore "barely legal" ("teen porn" usually explicit states that for exactly these legal reasons in the title, description or dialogue). VR Kanojo leaves the intention for the characters open and all the signs point for me to the the opposite of an "maybe just 18 but at least legal age".

    Something similar with Honey Select whose editor allows (without mods) characters who look like 6 year old girls. Here the "intention" of the player who creates and shares a character is more important than the games "message" (sex with my characters is positive and desirable). Sure, many of these "young looking" characters might be intended as young looking "barely legal" adult characters or as magical beings with an even longer lifespan. But the game also allows the other intention (creating and sharing a young looking character as underaged kid for the purpose of having sex with it).

    So both games for me are examples of officially in the western market released games who depict or at least strongly suggest exactly the kind of acts, who you claimed would never be allowed in the west. That was all...



  • @guthwulf I would disagree with that final statement. Pedophilic games are still not allowed in the west. As we had already gone over, one's perception of something is vastly different than the reality. You are perceiving the games as containing pedophilic content, despite the reality of the situation that it doesn't - if it was the game would be banned for sale in the west. You continue to claim that the character from VR Kanojo is a "young school girl", despite already showing that a.) the artstyle can greatly affect how old someone looks and b.) actual adult women who can look as young or younger exist in real life, and c.) there is many who enjoy teenage (18+)/School Girl fetishes as shown by the yearly PornHub reports (among others). That does not indicate a child, nor does that indicate pedophilia. The same goes for the creation of characters in Honey Select whose creation tools could allow you to create a vast array of horrifying monstrosities that you could "have sex" with, or pose in the character studio (which seems to be a highly popular thing, the more research I do on this particular title).



  • @luka
    There's been a lot of back and forth on this issue but I was just wondering (don't know if you stated it before) but how do you feel about Sony's right to control what they sell to the public? Regardless of what these games do/don't do show/don't show it's their right to control what they provide to their customers, no?



  • @themarcv
    While it is Sony's decision, it feels extremely odd for the sudden heel turn on this, especially since it seems like alot of developers didn't get the memo until the last minute, or requiring Japanese devs (and I assume devs from Poland, or Ukraine, ect) to submit to a inquiry, and in a language that said devs might not have a major grasp on.
    I mean hell Omega Labyrinth Z is the perfect example of just how out of nowhere the news came to devs, as the games translation was about finished, had all the marketing material ready to go, was rated by the ESRB, and then out of nowhere they have to cancel it as a last minute change happens at Sony.



  • @themarcv Pretty much what DMCMaster stated. Add to the fact that many of the games that are being censored were already M rated games, featuring content much less graphical, violent, or sexual than games that are already on the platform (Witcher 3, Red Dead Redemption 2, The Last of Us, etc).



  • I'm glad Sony is starting to curate their store more to get rid of the trash. Hopefully MS and Nintendo will follow suit.



  • ill always be anti censorship when it ruins game content. Im glad Nintendo seems to be backing away from its old censorship problems from last gen (xenoblade x, #FE, Bravely Default). When nintendo stops trying to be my parent they are way better. also idk if microsoft ever has censored but i bet its easier due to Japanese games are usually the ones that push the envelope and they dont get many japanese games.



  • @exist-2-inspire One man's trash is another man's treasure.



  • I was upset that REVII was censored in Japan but there wasn't much of a fuss when it happened last year.



  • @bigdude1 said:

    idk if microsoft ever has censored but i bet its easier due to Japanese games are usually the ones that push the envelope and they dont get many japanese games

    I bet they have, but it would mostly be censoring overly violent games being released in Japan. To say that Japanese games are usually the ones that push the envelope is inaccurate, because you're coming at that conclusion from a western perspective where you don't see violence as something that pushes the envelope often, so you only see the sexual games as the ones getting censored. Whereas the truth is violent games from the west often also need to have things censored to be acceptable releases in places like Japan, Germany, Australia, etc. That said, I think Xbox is a small market in Japan, so the violent games we have might just never be released there period. I don't closely follow that stuff to know for sure.

    @Hanabi Was going to type the same thing. Way too easy of a setup.

    @iboshow From Japan or from our forums? We're not predominantly Japanese users, so it just isn't an issue that effects us much. I wonder if Japan got upset about it, but it they didn't guess it just shows that much like the people here who are neutral or noncaring about sexual content censorship, many Japanese people are neutral or noncaring about gratuitous violence censorship. Just cultural differences. China, on the other hand, has a way different situation and reason for the things getting censored, so I figure you're bound to see much more outrage over that.



  • @exist-2-inspire I think they all should go one better and permanently lock you out of certain things, like sending images or mic chat, if you've ever purchased any of these pathetic "games".





  • @luka said in Censorship topic (out of the news thread):

    @darthammii alt text

    Don't take the bait.



  • @sheria I'm not. I just find it hilarious how silly they act - literally no different than a cartoon.