Vote for the forum's GOTY 2012!
@neocweeny Yup in this case it counts.
@TokyoSlim I can't force you but I think you could still vote for P4 for the 2008 GOTY, just as some people who may be voting for Diablo III now are likely not voting for the crappy version of the game that came out in 2012, but rather the game it became as it improved over the years. There's no perfect solution, by doing those retro GOTY we're bound to have situations like this, with games that have been re-released and evolved over time, and played by people at different times.
I can't force you but I think you could still vote for P4 for the 2008 GOTY
But I'd be voting for P4G, which is a 2012 game, and not P4. I didn't play P4, most people who talk about P4 are talking about P4G. That's my point. Many times more people played P4G on the Vita than P4 on PS2. It's a similar game, but without cuscenes, half the locations, two less main characters, less social links, different VA, etc.
I get it, it just seems like an arbitrary decision which will basically only punish P4G over a problem we are unlikely to have. Diablo III and P4G aren't really analagous. I don't think you can play Diablo III OG anymore. That game is gone. The game now is an iteration of the original game. P4G is not a patched copy of P4. It's a completely different release with greatly expanded content.
Not trying to change your mind, I just want to voice my displeasure with the decision.
I'll get back to this topic one last time to try and explain why the "rule" is the way it is:
From today's Direct, there were new examples of games being re-released with more content, like Tokyo Mirage Sessions which will have new characters, or Xenoblade Chronicles which apparently will have additional content and locations. I was also thinking of Donkey Kong Country Returns 3D on 3DS, which had a whole extra world added.
I feel those all fall under the same category as P4G: enhanced port with additional content. I still wouldn't say Xenoblade or TMS should be eligible next year for GOTY.
Yes, the extra content (usually) improves the game, but I don't think it makes the game that much better than its original release. If you played and loved P4G, you very likely would have loved P4 just the same. So when it comes to voting for P4, using your experience with P4G is perfectly relevant.
Again, I apologize to those who feel like P4G should be eligible, I should have been clearer from the start, this one's on me. But I don't want this to sour the whole thing and I hope those threads can remain light-hearted and fun! My main goal with those rules is to ensure each game is eligible for one year and one year only to avoid repeat winners and whatnot.
Axel last edited by Axel
So far, 20 people have voted, for 61 different games. It's super tight at the top as expected, no clear winner has emerged yet!
The votes have stopped coming in for the last couple days though so I'm afraid it's time for me to start PMing people directly. Slackers beware!
TokyoSlim last edited by
Yes, the extra content (usually) improves the game, but I don't think it makes the game that much better than its original release. If you played and loved P4G, you very likely would have loved P4 just the same.
I think that makes a lot of assumptions. Seems like handwaving away 20ish hours of a 100 hour character based RPG. That's a lot of content to just assume you'd like a game just as much without.
@tokyoslim I've never played Persona 4 and I finished Persona 4 Golden. All the time I was playing through that extra content I was wishing it wasn't there.
I adore original ending of Mass Effect 3 and I think that Extended ending ruins that perfect simplicity.
More isn't always better.
@ffff0 The point is that voting for one game is not the same as voting for the other. This is not an "extended ending".
@tokyoslim Of course. But if we vote for each release ongoing games will always be on the table which isn't fair. And we can't vote for the newest release, because there maybe new re-releases in the future, which again will result in multi-year nomination of the same game. So original release year is the most fair and most logical solution.
But again, it's not an ongoing game. CTR:Nitro Fueled didn't replace CTR. I don't see how it's unfair, more people played Golden. A lot more people. So those that did, vote on Golden. If you didn't like Golden you wouldn't vote for it. Not being able to vote on the game you played because a game you DIDN'T play came out earlier seems more unfair to me.
Your assumption that you'd like P4 better because it has less additional content (assume you mean Marie)- it also has none of the QOL improvements, different voice acting, less world building and story, fewer persona, and isn't even 16:9. (see current FFVIII complaints) I don't think it's fair to say you'd have a better time with a game you didn't really play. And nothing is actually stopping you from playing the original game. It still exists, separate from Golden. If you like it better, then you can vote for it and not Golden. That seems to be the most fair to me.
Again, just to clarify - I'm ok with the rule and submitted an alternate vote initially, I just think it's inconsistent and illogical and designed to prevent a problem that isn't really a problem to begin with. I haven't heard any compelling examples of games where this would result in an issue. Maybe Pokemon? Hasn't happened yet.
This rules out stuff like Tetris Effect and Tetris 99, which going by the Persona rule, are indistinguishable from 1989's Game Boy release (and each other)
I think we should probably stop shitting up this thread with complaints about rules tho. So that's the last I'll say about it.
@tokyoslim The thing is, it will always be a grey area. How much new content is enough to justify considering a game its own entry? With the examples I've given above, the Xenoblade or TMS re-releases, or DKC Returns 3D, which ones qualify, which ones don't? New Super Mario Bros U Deluxe added Peachette, that's a brand new character/power-up, so should we consider that a brand new 2019 game? The line has to be drawn somewhere.
I realize that P4G added a lot of content, but it's still Persona 4 at its core. It's the same story, the same gameplay, the same engine, all the additions or improvements of course make it overall a much better version of P4, but it's still a version of P4, not a unique game. A lot of these things would simply be added over time as free updates on today's consoles, but back then this wasn't the norm at all so re-releases were more common.
I don't want to open the door to every port being argued over every year because their more ardent fans want to justify why it should count. If we allow P4G then we must allow P5 Royal for 2020 since it's shaping up to be a similar situation, and that would make the proceedings very muddy, since some people would probably vote for it again just because they loved the "original", and so on.
Also I wan't to remind everyone that this is just some arbitrary rating by some arbitrary people. If your favorite game is not allowed that doesn't make it any worse and it doesn't make your enjoyment of it any less real.
@ffff0 Yes for sure, like I said above I don't want to ruin anyone's enjoyment, these threads are supposed to be fun, and I'm actually doing this because I feel like the other way around (allowing such re-releases) would eventually generate more issues and arguments.
@axel are these rhetorical questions or do you want me to answer them? lol
If Royal adds and changes nearly as much as P4G did I think it should be considered it's own release. It's funny that you make the case that all of P4G's changes in modern times would make it considered to be a patched update that would be dlc now, but then point out that Royal is in fact coming and is clearly not a patched DLC. I don't even know if Royal is going to change as much as P4G did. I kind of doubt it, considering it was literally a generational leap in gameplay from P4 to P4G going from offline to online and 4:3 to 16:9 and we don't really have that anymore. I guess VR and 4kHDR are that for right now.
But if Royal is among the best games of 2020, I don't see why voting on it would be an issue or muddies things. Can you tell me why you're averse to that outcome? If anything, I think p5's relative popularity would HURT Royal in the voting as I don't think nearly as many people are going to play it as the original, and there's a metric shit ton of other games to play right now. A lot of people won't even bother.
I think discussing whether a game counts or not is more fun than just sending in a list in a dead thread and waiting for you to compile results, but maybe that's just me. :)
@tokyoslim No I don't expect you to answer them, I'm just pointing out that if we don't draw a clear line, these are the kind of questions we would have to collectively answer every single time if we opened that can of worms. And it's not like we would end up agreeing, there would just be resentment on either side of each debate. You and I are already arguing endlessly over one game, so imagine the chaos... ;)
Yes P5R is doing a re-release instead of patched updates, but tons of games add significant content for free these days. Look at Smash adding new modes regularly, Mario & Rabbids added new multiplayer modes, there's hundreds of examples. Back then, those additions could only have happened with a re-release/port and following your logic, we would have to consider them brand new games, and I really can't agree with that.
Another example comes to mind, Dragon Quest XI on Switch this year gets a shitton of additions, the entire 2D mode, the old DQ worlds, new voices, new character stories, etc. It's very comparable to the P4G changes, and I also don't think it should be eligible for this year.
My issue with P5 (or Xenoblade, or any other "definitive" edition) potentially winning GOTY 2020 is simply that it's lame to see games that have already been celebrated to steal the spot of actual 2020 games. We'll see how it turns out, but I don't expect actual award shows like The Game Awards or EZA to consider it as eligible either. If they do, feel free to point at me and laugh next year :)
GOTY 2020 is simply that it's lame to see games that have already been celebrated to steal the spot of actual 2020 games.
And back to my main point, about this specific instance P4G is the more celebrated game. Not p4. So you're doing exactly what you're trying to avoid. :)
Haven't played either DQXI nor the switch version so I can't possibly comment. I think that should be how things go in general. I'm not voting on things I didn't play.
Only because we're doing the years in reverse. If we did 2008 first, people would have voted for Persona 4 (even if they played Golden), and there would be no problem.
@axel Seems like an assumption. I would not have. Especially considering the competition is different games.
Update: 25 people have now voted, for 67 games.
2 games are fighting it out for the top spot, neck and neck. Below them, a trio within 5 points of each other complete the top 5.
In total, 17 games have 8 points or more, so those are pretty much a lock for the final rankings.
Ideally, I'd love to get at least 5 more people to vote so we can have a pretty solid list, so please keep voting!
Bigdude1 last edited by
@axel ill get to it tonight.iv just been busy with astral chain
@bigdude1 No rush, I'll probably close the votes after this weekend.
We now have 29 participants, and 69 games.
A vote or two could still change who's number 1, it's been a while since it's been this tight.
22 games now have 8 points or more, and 3 others have 7 points, so we could end up with a tidy top 25.
I feel like 30 voters really is the sweet spot to have a meaningful ranking so thanks again to everyone who's participating.
If you haven't voted yet, it's not too late, the more the merrier!