The EZA Forum Hall of Greats (September 2021)

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    It was back in 2003 when Ubisoft released a game that would pretty much change my taste in games, almost define it. I was fifteen and had enjoyed so far mostly (children's) platformers and after those FPS games, but with Prince of Persia: The Sands of Time that all changed. That's when I discovered the action-adventure genre.

    The Sands of Time is a magical game. A wonderful journey. The atmosphere remains mysteriously peaceful throughout the whole game, even with all the fight sequences that happen time after time. At those times the action intensifies and the music changes suits, but when it's all over again and the Prince stands triumphant amidst the now-gone enemies the peace quickly returns. The game's balance works perfectly in that regard as the exploration and the sword fights come one after the other.

    Much of the exploration concentrates on large environmental puzzles in the huge palace and its courtyards and dungeons. The Prince needs to navigate through multiple obstacles, swing on poles, hit switches, run on walls and jump from ledges to the next ones. Often all of those combined, and sometimes with a ticking clock adding to the pressure. The euphoria is real when you finally beat a big room full of dangers and difficult traversal and get to continue.

    The fighting, on the other hand, happens mainly against large number of enemies who aren't exactly pushovers. They tend to teleport near you and swing their giant blades in big archs, forcing you to be on your guard. Luckily the Prince is an agile fellow who has an equally deadly sword of his own. The most satisfying move is to somersault over an enemy and stab them with the Dagger of Time, thus sucking the precious sand into it.

    Yes, the Dagger. The weapon that allows you to rewind time, THE gimmick of the series. It is a beautiful feature. Whether you've just failed a difficult wall-run or gotten hit by a deadly series of sword-strikes from an enemy, you just hold the button down and it all returns to moments before the disaster. Of course you can't spam it all the time as you need to refill the Dagger's power slots, but those are plentiful and there's sand to be found all over the palace.

    What I enjoy the most about the game, however, is its presentation. The story and how it's told. It's basically the Prince narrating the whole story and if you happen to die he simply gets a little confused and says that's not how it went. By the end of the game this whole narration angle has a beautiful payoff, which - spoiler - involves Farah. The other integral person of the story, without whom this would all be so, so much less. I love Farah. The way the pair struggle through the nightmare together and then get their peaceful moments from time to time is what elevates The Sands of Time so high for me. Those are the moments I remember the best. The moments that still bring a bittersweet smile on my face almost twenty years later.

    The Sands of Time wants to tell a story and it does it without anything unnecessary. It doesn't have any customization or weapons to choose from, because it doesn't need them. Instead the game tells about your progress by ripping away the Prince's shirt, sleeve by sleeve, until he finally throws the whole garment away. In the same fashion the Prince comes upon only a few new swords on his journey, which makes these discoveries every time huge moments to witness and cheer. All of these style choises made by the studio are literal joy for my senses.

    Prince of Persia: The Sands of Time has remained in my Top 5 games of all time and it still continues to do so. There have been countless games that I've enjoyed and loved through the years after, but only a tiny fraction of them has had as lasting an impact as the Prince and Farah's story. The game's truly a classic for me and I love it dearly. "Kakolookiyam."

    I found an excellent clip from the Prison. A bit narration, then traversal, and finally fighting.
    Youtube Video

    The Tower of Dawn, my favourite song from the game.
    Youtube Video

  • I'm finally done!

    My video:

    Youtube Video

    Chopping this thing down from 9 minutes was rough, sorry if there are obvious edits.

    I'll make another post in a few hours opening this thing for cross-examination.

  • Of these seven games one was brought by me, one is partly familiar and five are completely unknown to me (never played them, never saw someone else playing them). Therefore, I will give my votes solely based on your arguments. So don’t feel like you’ve already lost, because someone else brought more revered game – make the best case for your title and 3 points are yours.

  • I must say at this point that for the first EZA Community Hall of Greats-this seems rather impossible! You've all brought a fantastic and varied selection of games to the inaugural community HoG. Thank you all for participating and @Capnbobamous for making this all possible!

  • Hey everybody, cross-examination is now open. Here is a quick refresher on the rules:

    1. Each person is allowed to ask up to two questions per game presented.
    2. If a question is asked about a certain game, only the person who brought that game is allowed to respond.
    3. Anybody is able to cross-examine, even those who did not present a game themselves.

    There's no word limit or post limit here, so feel free to spread your questions out over time or ask them all at once. You do you! This will last until the end of the 19th, after which I will ask for your votes.

  • Question to @Brannox about Final Fantasy VII.

    Every artform evolves over time, but videogames evolve especially fast, and things that were groundbreaking and innovative yesterday feels simplistic and limited today, because follow-up games took those ideas and pushed them even further. And I’m not talking just about technical side, I’m talking about everything, even storytelling. I loved Mass Effect 2 to death when I played it a decade ago, but when I’ve replayed it in Legendary Edition this summer, I was extremely disappointed with the fact that your companions don’t talk to each other even when they really should (I took Miranda on Jack’s loyalty mission and she remained silent even when Jack talked shit on Cerberus’s experiments). Lack of such subtle conversations didn’t bother me at all in 2010, but in 2021 a hero that doesn’t react to his surrounding feels poorly written.

    So, it’s hard for me to believe that things you were praising in your presentation (story, characters, battle system) will have the same impact if you play this game today for the first time. Final Fantasy VII may be an important part of gaming history and was probably Great in 1997. But is it really Great in 2021?

  • Question to @JDINCINERATOR about GTA: Vice City.

    In your presentation you’ve praised this game for perfectly capturing the vibe of the era and being incredibly immersive. At the same time, you said that there’s no time for emotions or serious storytelling and you spend most of the time wreaking havoc and destruction. Aren’t these two aspects contradicting each other?

  • Question to @DIPSET about Tony Hawk's Underground.

    In your presentation you’ve talked about “One more try” aspect of this game and from my experience the desire to try again only kicks in when you feel like it was just a stupid mistake, and you can do it perfectly on the very next attempt. You may then lose 10 times in a row, but you must always feel that next one will be the one. But then you said that a lot of goals are really difficult. Giving “one more try” to a difficult task usually means just bashing your head against the wall – to succeed you need to commit time to analyze the task, to get good at each component and then to practice chaining those things together.

    Does that mean that “One more try” aspect of Tony Hawk's Underground only works when you’ve already mastered this game and just improving your scores?

  • Question to @Oscillator about The Legend of Zelda: Majora's Mask.

    My biggest concern with games with time loop mechanic is that you have to redo a lot of actions over and over, which can be especially unpleasant if you were on the right track and just ran out of time. And one-hour loop seems like a lot of progress ready to be lost. I imagine that the prospect of such significant progression loss will pressure you to skip dialogs, exploration, and experimentation, which are probably the very things that make this game worth playing.

    So, I want to ask you: what positive aspects time loop mechanic bring to this game and what makes drawbacks of having time loop mechanic less dreadful than they seem from the outside?

  • Question to @Sentinel-Beach about Prince of Persia: The Sands of Time.

    In gameplay video that you’ve presented, camera was seamless during traversal, but there were a lot of perspective shifts during combat. Having two different camera behaviors seem odd on its own, but it’s especially strange when the more “chaotic” version is allocated to fighting enemies. This was a very simple environment, yet I was disoriented and confused to the point that I initially thought that some portion of gameplay was cut for the interest of time.

    How camera feels when you play the game? Is it more, or less a hurdle than when you watch someone else playing it?

  • Question to @Capnbobamous about Katamari Damacy.

    In your presentation you’ve mentioned simplicity, joyfulness and equality as the main things that make this game a unique experience. And while it’s true that most games try to be more serious or focused, there are many games (especially among indies) that shares the same qualities. Flower, Donut County, ABZÛ, probably Journey, probably Tearaway, likely the most of “walking simulators”… If I was more familiar with this sub-genre, I would likely name many more similar games.

    It’s obvious that Katamari Damacy is a very special game for you, but new player doesn’t have such bond yet. So why should he choose to play Katamari Damacy instead of any other simple joyful game with positive meaning?

  • @ffff0 I believe that Vice City is fully capable of providing something that feels authentic whilst leveraging that with GTA's brand of open-world sandbox mayhem. I don't think there's a formidable contradiction here. I think I see what you're saying because serious storytelling when done well can make a game even more immersive, but I think Vice City is able to marry its 80s era presentation with a penchant for destruction by doffing its cap to all the references it makes to pop culture.

  • @ffff0 Generally do you think it's a bit too early to consider Apex Legends a great given that it's two-years old and its community is still going strong, or do you believe enough time has elapsed for it to be considered a great?

  • @brannox Given that Final Fantasy VII is over two-decades old, do you think it's capable of being as enjoyable today as it was when it came out in 1997?

  • @dipset Do you think that Tony Hawks Underground's ability to get off your board undermines the arcade pleasures of its predecessors in any way?

  • @oscillator Do you think Majora's Mask does enough to step out of Ocarina of Time's shadow and establish an identity all its own?

  • @sentinel-beach How do you feel Prince of Persia has inspired other games in its genre and do you hold it up as a trailblazer of sorts?

  • @capnbobamous Before I ask the question I'll say that video brought a tear to my eye-you have demonstrated what the true power of the videogame medium can do with this presentation. As for my question do you think Katamari Damacy might be too strange to appeal to younger audiences?

  • Respond to @jdincinerator question about whether Apex Legends is too new to be considered for Hall of Greats.

    I think that determining how much time needs to pass to evaluate Apex Legends as a possible Great is very tricky question because this is an evolving game. We can wait two more years, and we will likely be in exactly the same situation – it’s too early to evaluate entire legacy of this game, because it’s still happening. So, we either have to keep waiting until this game dies, or we have to be open to the idea that some games can be called Great while they are still active. Since we are open to the idea of “living classic” among writers, film directors, stage performers and other artists, the second option makes more sense to me.

    This doesn’t mean that we shouldn’t wait at all - we all had honeymoon phases with certain games only to realize later that they aren’t as great as they initially seamed. But my case for Apex Legends mostly revolves around things that were there from the beginning (character-specific interactions were added a year later) and I think more than enough time has passed to let emotions cool down and evaluate them rationally. After all, my presentation was mostly based on facts, rather than my passion for this game (this statement DOES NOT mean that certain presentation style is better than other).

  • T.H.U.G - RESPONSE #1

    Response to @ffff0 question about the addiction-factor and difficulty in T.H.U.G only comes with Mastery of the game.


    Really good question—I wanted to elaborate on this more and was hoping somebody would bring up the "one more try" addiction factor.

    There are two really strong qualities to the "one more try" factor and the first one is exactly as you describe it. Even on Normal mode, there are at least one or two tough goals per level. Your desire to keep going again and again is mostly from small mistakes. Something like a slip of a thumb or not ollieing far enough to reach the next object which might ruin momentum. So it's almost always "Damn—so close! Next one!".

    The goals aren't brutally difficult in the sense you need to have a mastery of the game and score a 2M point combo. It's difficult in the sense that you need to focus and stay precise. Goals are difficult in the sense that they provide a reasonable challenge that you likely won't complete on the very first attempt.

    The other quality to the addiction factor is the snappiness of the <START> <DOWN> <RESET> process. In T.H.U.G, the goal restart is nearly instant. You get back into the action in a blink of an eye. So when you do feel like you absolutely have it the next time, you're right back in there. Bam bam bam. The addiction factor is amplified through the roof by this quick process. It is also significantly more quick and addicting than other sports/arcade games of it's era like SSX or Gran Turismo which take a long time to restart a challenge.


    Response to @JDINCINERATOR question if getting off your skateboard in T.H.U.G undermines the arcade nature of the series.


    Getting off your skateboard in T.H.U.G actually enhances the pre-established combo system by introducing the "Cave Man" mechanic which gives you a short ongoing timer which limits the amount of time you are allowed to be off your board and still keep your combo. It also helps your character level out if you Cave Man in mid-air which I think enhances that pre-existing arcadey combo system.

    That said—I know the spirit of your question was about the overall experience of getting off your board. I really don't think getting off your board is the reason why T.H.U.G feels a lot different than earlier THPS games.

    In Tony Hawk's Pro Skater 4 you CANNOT get off your board. Yet, it was the sweeping design changes introduced in THPS4 that introduced the open world Career Mode and individual goal structure that carried into T.H.U.G. That specific design decision moved the direction from 2 minute arcade frenzy into more open world sandbox and individual goals. So getting off your board isn't really a factor in the change of direction. Old school arcade THPS is great. I think the open world formula is a bit less arcadey, but better overall.