The EZA Forum Hall of Greats (September 2021)



  • Alright folks, it is time to DM me your votes. As a reminder, here are the rules:

    1. Only those who brought a game can vote
    2. You must choose your top 3 picks, with your first place game getting three points, second place getting two, and third place getting one.
    3. You may not vote for your own game.
    4. If a game gets no votes, it will be banned for a year.

    I will start to reveal the winners after I receive all the votes. For the sake of transparency I think it important to mention that I have already voted in order to avoid having your votes influence me. It wasn't easy! I also want to thank you all for participating. I think it was really fun and it wouldn't have been possible without you.

    Anyway, here is the updated list of all the submissions and cross-examination questions:

    Apex Legends

    Final Fantasy VII

    Grand Theft Auto: Vice City

    Tony Hawk's Underground

    The Legend of Zelda: Majora's Mask

    Prince of Persia: The Sands of Time

    Katamari Damacy

    If I made a mistake let me know. The list in original topic post has been updated as well. I encourage you all to look through everything again before you make your picks.



  • Votes sent. Excited to find out what will be our first Greats!



  • Yeah we can have a little postmortem once the voting is done, but I think the presentations and cross exam went pretty well.

    Good luck!



  • My votes are in.

    I didn't present any questions, but the thread was already pretty full of text and opinions and the games aren't too unfamiliar for me, so I thought everything was already cool.



  • In case anyone was wondering, I've also sent my votes this morning.

    Joke suggestion: in case of a tie, Allies should vote for the winner.



  • Okay folks I have received all of the votes. I'll separate the reveal into two posts, with the second post coming later today. Before I start, I would just like to say that you all made really good presentations and brought really good games. You all did wonderfully regardless of how many votes your game got. I'd also like to say that every game got at least one vote, meaning nothing is banned. Hooray! Without further ado, the following games did not make it into the Forum Hall of Greats in the month of September 2021:

    0_1632173704871_prince-of-persia-the-sands-of-time-gba.png
    #7: The Prince of Persia: The Sands of Time -- 1 point

    Submitted by @Sentinel-Beach
    Presentation


    0_1632173940435_GTA-Vice-City-2.png

    #6: Grand Theft Auto: Vice City -- 3 points

    Submitted by @JDINCINERATOR
    Presentation


    0_1632174162933_538006-apex-legends-xbox-one-front-cover.png

    #5. Apex Legends -- 6 points

    Submitted by @ffff0
    Presentation


    0_1632174325295_70406-tony-hawk-s-underground-playstation-2-front-cover.png

    #4. Tony Hawk's Underground -- 7 points

    Submitted by @DIPSET
    Presentation


    Massive respect to these games and the people that brought them. I will make the next post in a couple of hours that will first reveal the #1 winner, then reveal second place. See you then! Also shoutout to Axel for giving me the formatting ideas for this.



  • @Capnbobamous We'd probably reveal our votes anyways, but I expected it to be a secret ballot.



  • @oscillator I just figured the Allies do a thing where we see what they voted for. Frankly didn't cross my mind that it would be secret, but fair enough if you'd all like I can make it secret next time.



  • Alright folks, here are the final three. I didn't include the votes this time, and I have edited the other post to get rid of votes too.

    We'll start with the number 1 entry, the first game to be entered into the EZA Forum Hall of Greats:


    0_1632190263911_dAgM49d.png

    #1: Final Fantasy VII -- 9 points

    Submitted by @Brannox
    Presentation

    That's right the first game to enter the HoG is Final Fantasy VII, with a total of 9 points. Congrats to Brannox and those who voted for it!

    This means that we have two games left, only one of which can be entered into the HoG: The Legend of Zelda: Majora's Mask and Katamari Damacy. Without further ado, here is the second place pick and the second game to enter the Hall of Greats:


    0_1632191040030_372898-katamari-damacy-playstation-3-front-cover.png

    #2: The Legend of Katamari: Majora's Damacy -- 8 points

    If only it were that easy. In fact, we have a TIE, with both games getting 8 points total. We didn't talk about ties so I don't know what to do. Would love to hear what y'all are thinking.



  • 1.) WOW. I thank all who felt I both presented my pick well enough and answered cross-examinations satisfactorily (if that's a word). If we keep doing them, I FULLY expect my next pick will NOT make it. All the same, I greatly appreciate the votes.

    2.) As far as the tiebreaker, two ideas come to mind (And if there's a better one, I'll gladly hear it): A.) We go off of most amount of highest votes (so which of the two had the most three votes) OR B.) All seven of us vote in a strawpoll (Hidden results until all seven votes counted).

    Option A means we don't need to revote, just rely on whichever submission meant the most to the most participants. Option B ensures there is NO tiebreaker, because there's seven of us. Just a couple of ideas, and again, I'm totally open for doing anything that is better.



  • @capnbobamous said in The EZA Forum Hall of Greats (September 2021):

    @oscillator I just figured the Allies do a thing where we see what they voted for.

    They used to, but changed it so you can only tell which games they voted for, not the exact points, to prevent the live chat from knowing the result in advance.

    The way EZA handles ties is a Patreon vote. I suppose we could open votes to all forum members, but I personally prefer having a runoff with either the seven of us voting, or just the five with no skin in the game. Most highest votes is also an option.

    Let's see what all parties think.



  • Wow, Apex Legends got 6 points – that’s 6 points more than I’ve expected when I decided to bring this game. Thank you!

    I think that voting between these two games makes the most sense as a tiebreaker, but we may not necessarily need to revote. There are 7 of us. Two of us were presenters, who can’t vote for their own games, which means that they have to vote for each other, which means that their votes cancel each other. 5 participants remain. If their current votes already showed what game they prefer (they putted one game above the other or gave points to only one of them), we can count that as a vote for that game. Since there are 5 possible votes, a game that gets at least 3 wins. If we already have that, we can call it a day. If not, @capnbobamous can privately message those who didn’t vote for any of these two games and ask them to vote for one of them.



  • I am glad 3 points were awarded to Vice City, but I didn't think it was going to get into the HoG thanks to some stellar competition. I've loved this community Hall of Greats so much that I can't wait for the next one whenever that will be. I think Majora's Mask and Katamari Damacy should go into the Hall of Greats together but perhaps that would be too generous. Some form of tie-breaker could be made but when the two games get so close just to miss out it's quite heart-breaking. I think a simple vote to determine whether there should be a tie-breaker or simply put both games in the HoG could be made.



  • I think Alexander cleared the situation well, meaning Capn already basically knows which of the two should get in. The votes of the five other presenters need to be studied a bit.

    Meaning: let's keep this between us and not allow ties.



  • @ffff0

    Honestly man, you made about as good of an argument as you could have for why Apex Legends specifically is worthy of "Great" status. I had a few questions because I was skeptical but now I actually have an itch to hop in with my one friend who plays a lot of BR games and give Apex a shot.

    --

    I'm kinda disappointed THUG didn't get in because it is likely up there as my favourite game of all time, but I knew it was a long shot. I really just wanted to try and shed light on the fact that the Tony Hawk series is a lot deeper than the simplification of "old school is better" and "it loses focus later" because the series actually got deeper with time and some of the mechanics sort of outweigh my linguistic ability to explain them.

    Regardless, hopefully you guys give THUG another shot. I don't feel as passionately for the other Tony Hawk games, but I think one of them should get in there.

    --

    ALSO, shout out to NO BANS!

    I read and re-read all of our presentations and cross examinations and I really truly think we all did a good enough job to argue on behalf of our games. I had a feeling every single game would get at least one vote.



  • @dipset Dude I was so taken aback when you revealed that THUG was the Tony Hawk's game you picked for the HoG. I think THUG is probably the best game in the franchise because it felt exactly like the title suggests, it's got a greater urban and gritty flavour to it-which actually coincides quite nicely with the early 00s attitude.



  • I really like Alexander's idea so that's what I'll do. After going through the votes, everybody voted for at least one of the games, meaning that without having to reach out to anybody the winner of the tiebreaker is decided. With 3 votes to 2 (or 4 to 3, as we both voted for each other), the winner of the tiebreaker and second game entered into the Forum Hall of Greats is:


    0_1632244718590_60165-the-legend-of-zelda-majora-s-mask-nintendo-64-front-cover.png

    #2: The Legend of Zelda: Majora's Mask -- 8 points

    Submitted by @Oscillator
    Presentation

    Congrats to Oscillator and those who voted. And that's it everybody. The first ever EZA Forum Hall of Greats is officially over! So, tell me what you thought, what could be changed, what worked, and if/when we should do it again. This was trial by fire but I think it worked out pretty well, but I'd love to hear what you're thinking.



  • Congrats to Majora's Mask for getting into the Hall! And again, a high-five to everyone for all coming together to do this. Super fun, and I'm always down to keep it going, but if anybody wants to take a break, that's quite understandable.

    As far as any pain-points, I think this went exceptionally smooth, even here at the end to decide how to break the tie. Personally, because I always wanted to see how things progressed, I FELT the wait for others to present and to see what cross-examinations came in, not just for me but everyone as a whole. If there was someway to cut down the time, that would be great BUT I think keeping it at a week long intervals for each step is important, as not everybody will want/can log in every day (or even for an extended period). So the wait feeling long is just a personal quirk, and overall, everything was passionate, cordial, well argued/reason, and I think this model is a great start.

    One last note: While I personally don't mind revealing what I voted for now the first two are in, if everything should be kept to ourselves, I understand that as well. If we DO reveal how we voted, I concur that it ONLY should be done once reveals are over. SO: If any/everyone else wants to leave their votes, I'll update this post with my ballot. If not, I'll keep it secret and I say we proceed with the second round if enough people are wanting to do so.

    Side question to you @Capnbobamous: If we keep going, am I correct in assuming you would keep the OP for each thread an updated list of all games that have made it in to that point? Because if there's some way to keep a nice one-stop spot for every winner, that would be nice. Kind of like the Allies' Hall.

    UPDATE: Since others have left their votes, here's where I landed:

    3 votes: THUG
    2 votes: Majora's Mask
    1 vote: Apex Legends
    JUST missed: Sands of Time

    For me this round, I felt both presentations and cross-examinations combined to really strengthen my picks for THUG and MM. And what ultimately had Apex barely edge out Sands of Time for me is the difference in how the gameplay clips provided either supplemented or hindered the arguments/answers were provided.



  • Here are my votes. Please remember that all criticism is just an opinion of one man who doesn’t know what he’s talking about.

    1. Final Fantasy VII. The oldest game here, and since I believe that not a single game holds up after enough time passes, this nominee had the highest mountain to climb. But it gets my 3 points for two reasons. Firstly, @Brannox said that there are completely missable scenes and dialogs which you can only see if you have right party composition. Even now not every RPG goes to such length with its script, so I do believe that Final Fantasy VII’s story and characters will still have impact if you play this game for the first time today. And secondly, others Final Fantasy games didn’t come up during discussion, which made me to believe that this game is strong enough to stand on its own no matter how good or beloved other games in the series are.

    2. The Legend of Zelda: Majora's Mask. This one got very close to being #1 but didn’t get it because there was an argument that guide improves overall experience and I do think that Great game should be Great without external support. However, @Oscillator convinced me that time loop mechanic is used for great effect here and that it’s an integral part of game’s story and world. I felt Outer Wilds vibes and for that reason I’ve put The Legend of Zelda: Majora's Mask high on my list.

    3. Katamari Damacy. This was the only game I had slight knowledge of, but it’s not the reason it’s my #3. I gave this game my last point because @Capnbobamous kept insisting that this simple game needs to be simple to be so powerful, and since it impacted him so much, I tend to believe this claim. Sometimes you have to reward simple solutions, and I believe, this is one of such instances.

    4. Grand Theft Auto: Vice City. This one was very close to getting my points and @JDINCINERATOR build a great case for it. I was pretty convinced that this may be the best game in the series, but I didn’t saw enough of what makes this game better than other games from the genre. I mean, many good arguments were made for this game, but none of them jumped out as a must in terms of giving my points.

    5. Tony Hawk's Underground. Both during @DIPSET presentation and during cross-examination other games from the series were constantly brought up. Ultimately, I’ve got an impression that this comes down to “being favorite” much more than “being the best”. Of course, this is true for any game in any series, but I felt like Tony Hawk's Underground struggles with stepping out of the shadow of other Tony Hawk games slightly more than Grand Theft Auto: Vice City or The Legend of Zelda: Majora's Mask.

    6. Prince of Persia: The Sands of Time. This will sound harsher than intended, but I think that @Sentinel-Beach has shot himself in the foot by incorporating gameplay clip into his presentation. He later said that this wasn’t the best part of the game, but “it’s not as bad as it looks” isn’t something I want to hear when we discuss possible Greats.



  • @capnbobamous I think this process went extremely well, better than I expected. Sure, cross-examination was a bit chaotic at first, but giving global nature of our community and individual time schedules, it can hardly be helped. So, I think we can leave things as they are for now (just add tiebreaking rule to the next initial post).

    Since this process took almost a month, I think 3 months break is a good interval (basically, doing next one in January, then in May, then in September). Preparing submission and discussing them afterwards takes significant amount of time, and if we do this too often, it will be like a job.