The EZA Forum Hall of Greats (September 2022)



  • @ffff0 regarding FORZA HORIZON 5

    1. I love FORZA HORIZON 5, but honestly I do feel as though it’s playing to the same tunes as its predecessors much of the time. I felt FORZA Horizon 4 was the peak of the series. What does FORZA HORIZON 5 do better than FORZA HORIZON 4 or any other racing game you’d played?

    2. Do you think the Mexican setting provides the same level of diversity as FORZA HORIZON 4’ Great Britain or FORZA HORIZON 3’s Australian outback?

    @Brannox regarding DOOM II

    1. You say every level is loaded with secrets and that they give (and I’m paraphrasing here) a badass alternative to running through the game normally. Are these secrets in level design the only big destructive string to Doom II’s bow?

    2. Do you think anything is missing from modern Doom games that Doom II specifically nails?

    @bruno_saurus regarding God of War 2018

    1. God of War has been heralded as one of the greatest games of the last generation. I think its praise is rather overblown in certain regards, especially the gameplay. What do you feel makes God of War stand above all other big hitters on the PS4?

    2. Do you feel that giving Kratos a modern facelift was the right move for the franchise?

    @DIPSET regarding The Chronicles of Riddick: Escape From Butcher Bay

    1. Do you think Escape From Butcher Bay languishes in the past two much to be any significant to the here and now?

    2. Is there anything from Butcher Bay that you feel today’s shooters could do with implementing?

    @Shoulderguy regarding X-COM: Enemy Unknown

    1. I suck at strategy games and I find many of them difficult to grasp and enjoy. How could you ease me into X-COM: Enemy Unknown without tuning out?

    2. Do you think X-COM: Enemy Unknown is largely overlooked for a great game?

    @Capnbobamous regarding The Outer Wilds

    1. Outer Wilds is a fascinating and enchanting experience, however I personally find it difficult to sink into. What do you think can ease players into experiencing it without any sense of obligation?

    2. Would you say Outer Wilds has a No Man’s Sky allure to it and do you feel it distinguishes itself enough to stand on its own?

    @Oscillator regarding Star Fox 64

    1. Do you feel that Star Fox 64 deserves more credit for what it has achieved considering your personal experiences with it?

    2. Looking at the footage, is it accurate to assume there’s too much going on at one time visuals that you could be distracted momentarily and your ship could careen into an obstruction?



  • Alright, home from work and now I'm able to answer what was posed to me:

    From @ffff0 regarding if a first-time new player today would highlight level design as a strength:

    In my opinion, yes, for two reasons:

    One - In terms of layout, both regarding the physical space and the art design. The physical space is never too cramped, giving you flexibility to move around at your pace to dodge enemy attacks and many levels (though not all, and I'll get to The Chasm [a.k.a. Level 24] in a moment), are able to guide you without simultaneously holding your hand. Since most are corridors with branching paths (and each branch holding something of value, be it health, armor, weapons, ammo, switch/keycard to progress, etc. without going to far before coming to an end, if not circling back to the main path), it's never too confusing because of the art design. Machinery, demonic carvings, doors, lights and the like are able to paint each area with a unique flair and it's through these unique icons which simultaneously serve as clear indicators of the game's secrets. You are correct there are no sound cues, but visually there are TONS, to which here are some examples:

    • A portion of the wall being a slightly different shade than the rest of said wall
    • The brick (or pattern) on the wall isn't lining up with the rest of said pattern
    • A weird eye/face/symbol/machinery that isn't present elsewhere on the wall or room.
    • An exploding barrel conspicuously by itself in an open area (and shooting it causing an explosion allows you to interact with the secret it was guarding).
    • The aforementioned light pressure pad I mention in my presentation is just one example of falling/running off a higher plane onto something that triggers a wall opening.

    And to be clear, not every secret has an indicator, but most do, if you're looking closely enough after you kill everything in whatever room you're in.

    Two - The themes of where you are as part of the campaign. After every boss level, you're given a brief text screen explaining where you're going, and it's pretty clear some levels are bases, some are in hell (both in a wasteland or demonic castles), there's one that's literally a city on earth with multiple story buildings, one that's an apartment that opens up and doubles back on itself, and of course the Wolfenstein secret levels. These different hooks stand out for both being memorable and engaging with what each tasks you to do.

    Which brings me to The Chasm. Often (and even with your question), the Chasm is often derided as the "worst" of the 30 levels in the game. As I said above in this post, most of the levels afford you the space to move around, so I get for this level being high atop the acid/lava floor on super thin walls is the anthesis of that playstyle, but why it works for me is that if you play to what the Chasm is asking of you (To carefully traverse the top of this wall to the other side), you find the exit soon after, and you're not playing the level for long. However, as is often the case for most (myself included), it's really easily to fall off, causing you to move FAST as you take damage looking for the teleporter (or a biosuit). This opens up the level to hold various secrets holding an assortment of goodies, if you're willing to pay the pound of flesh to reach them. There's also several teleporters in the level that put you back atop the level, so once you find just one of these, you can just sprint to that spot if you don't want to explore and/or minimize damage.

    The final thing regarding The Chasm is it's only one level AND towards the end. You'll play about 26-27 without looking for the other three-four secret levels, so this level might get its criticisms (and most rightfully deserved in addition to being so late in the campaign) but it isn't indicative to the rest of the time it takes to get there. Lastly, while I know I'm in the minority (as you say, with yourself and your family members all calling it quits at that moment), but this level never presented problems to me on where to go; just on getting to the end.

    To close, one thing I didn't touch on is the in-game map you can pull up if you do get lost. Since enemies don't respawn, if you clear out most of the level, you can open the vector graphic map, see your little icon and run around to portions of the map you haven't filled in (indicated by disconnected yellow lines signifying walls) without fear of something attacking you (Unless you run into an environmental hazard).


    From @Phbz regarding if DOOM II is enough of an improvement on having it in the Hall over the first DOOM:

    Yes, and while I tried to make my presentation a reflection of this very question, allow me to go a little more in-depth on some aspects I touched on that I elected not to for the focus on level design (To which, please see my above answer to @ffff0 why I think it's an improvement in that aspect). Let's talk Boss encounters, twice as many demons, and getting you weapons and quickly:

    • Boss Encounters - Bosses feel more like an event in DOOM II because in the original, it's pretty clear when you reach the "Boss Level" at the end of the campaigns. You know what to expect, the levels are short, and when you best them, you go to the exit and that's end. Congratulations. Campaign over. But in DOOM II, you don't know until you walk into a courtyard with four Mancubi (and other enemies as well) all simultaneously firing rockets at you, forcing you to think on your feet FAST, or perhaps opening many doors in a small circular room until you enter one, turn right, and see 20 Barons of Hell in front of a massive CyberDemon and if you don't have the BFG (which this example DOES give you in a different room), it's the fight of (and for) your life. Even when you start in a room with ALL the weapons and ammo with a teleporter taking you to a giant mechanized goat's head with a glowing weakspot as it yells at you is incredibly unique and memorable.

    • Demons - As I touched on, DOOM II introduces twice as many demons as in the original without sacrificing any of the enemies of old. Spider Masterminds, Mancubi, Archviles, Pain Elementals, Revenants and more all have their own strategies, both to kill you and for you to take them down. In addition, they're tougher the their DOOM 1 counterparts, so combat is livened up greatly (which is the core mechanic of DOOM), especially when you have the aforementioned BFG or Super Shotgun.

    • Getting you weapons quickly - As I tried to highlight in my first level example, the game WANTS you to have as many weapons as possible, as early as possible. In the first DOOM, the famous E1M1, the only additional weapon you can find in the first level is just the Shotgun to go with your pistol. In DOOM II, you not only can find the Shotgun, but the Chainsaw and Rocket Launcher as well. As I also state, it does a much easier job getting you the BFG. As long as you don't die and play smartly, you have these weapons permanently. To me, the original DOOM only sparsely awards you weapons as you complete levels, whereas by level 3 or 4 in DOOM II, with the exception of the BFG, you should be fully armed (especially if you go hunting for secrets).


    From @JDINCINERATOR regarding if the secrets are the "only big destructive string to DOOM II's bow:"

    Please forgive the brevity of this answer, because I feel as if I've actually answered this particular question above: It's not JUST the secrets that are so rewarding, but the diversity of demons, memorable and periodic boss fights, level themes, and other equipment as well all come together to make you feel awesome, no matter what you're doing.

    From @JDINCINERATOR regarding if DOOM II has something the modern DOOM reboots lack:

    Simply: No. This may be a detriment to DOOM II, but the modern DOOMs have the capacity (through both technological advancements and gameplay mechanics [see: Flamethrower generating armor, glory kills giving health, different types of grenades]) that something from the 90s just could never have. It's been said often by id that Eternal was to DOOM 2016 as DOOM II was to the first DOOM: Bigger, badder, more demons, more of a narrative, more weapons, more, More, MORE. But I do think it's incredibly awesome you can play both DOOM AND DOOM II in the Fortress (a hub being something else early games didn't really have) in Eternal. But honestly? DOOM II doesn't need all of that. It's nice to have, sure, and DOOM: Eternal is all the better for it, but there is something to the phrase "Beauty in the simplicity."



  • Response to @JDINCINERATOR questions about Forza Horizon 5’s differences from 4, location diversity and comparison to other racing games.

    Forza Horizon 4 is a great game and 5 doesn’t try to fix what wasn’t broken, so the sense of familiarity is not unwarranted. But at the same time, there’s more to Forza Horizon 5 than repletion of the same formula. Events Lab (custom tracks creator) is a brand-new feature, and if you’re interested in user-generated content, that’s a huge deal. Expeditions are also new, and I find this form of single-player progression much more engaging than accumulation of points to buy new festival’s location in prior games. There’s much more variety in missions and much more unique events, like driving a parade float. While the map in Forza Horizon 4 looked very similar throughout, in Forza Horizon 5 you don’t need to wait a week for season’s change to get new environments as raining forest is just 1-minute away from scorching desert. And this entry was developed for current gen, so visuals were improved significantly. On its own each of these additions may sound insignificant, but they all add up to much smoother and welcoming experience. Also, I feel like Forza Horizon 5 managed to capture completely new audiences (biggest Forza game launch ever sales wise despite being on Game Pass), which is another reason why I’m nomination this game over other entries in the series.

    As for comparison with other racing games, it’s a bit of “apples and oranges” since every series is doing its own thing. But I can highlight one advantage of Forza Horizon 5 – it doesn’t create a feeling of “playing wrong” even if you tuned the difficulty and assists to easily win every race. I mean, when I’m skipping qualification in F1 games and then get from last to first on the first lap, it doesn’t feel like a proper F1 experience. While in Forza Horizon 5 whatever and however I chose to do feels like intended way to play.



  • @jdincinerator said in The EZA Forum Hall of Greats (September 2022):

    @Oscillator regarding Star Fox 64

    1. Do you feel that Star Fox 64 deserves more credit for what it has achieved considering your personal experiences with it?

    2. Looking at the footage, is it accurate to assume there’s too much going on at one time visuals that you could be distracted momentarily and your ship could careen into an obstruction?

    1. I think it's gotten all the credit it can, considering when it released, where it released, and where the series went. It released in close proximity to Super Mario 64 and Wave Race 64, which revolutionized 3D platforming and water physics respectively, then the next year Ocarina of Time became the platform's killer app by a country mile. It's similar to how Perfect Dark did so much, but not only struggled underneath Goldeneye's huge shadow, it was then overshadowed again by Halo a year-and-a-half later. And both Star Fox 64 and Perfect Dark then received total flops for sequels in Star Fox Adventures and Perfect Dark Zero, helping people forget even more easily. Still, Star Fox 64 is considered the definitive 3D on-rails shooter, easily a top 10 Nintendo 64 game, and a distinguished member of Nintendo's canon of classics. Its lack of broader notoriety is no knock whatsoever against its sheer level of quality and incredibly distinctive presentation.

    2. Star Fox 64 isn't really an obstacle course game. Things are occasionally put in your way, but there's almost always plenty of room to move. I recall hitting passing enemies way more often than parts of the map. The art style is also very clean and well defined, making both enemies and obstacles very prominent.



  • Question for @Capnbobamous

    How do you feel about the ships’ controls when the game asks you to be as stealthily moving as possible? One area that I had trouble with was one where you need to make as little sound as possible, but if you do make noise you basically need to restart the whole day over.

    Question for @Oscillator

    How do you feel Star Fox 64 stands against its predecessor (official) in Star Fox on the SNES besides the better graphics of course?

    Question for @ffff0
    Do you think the core tenants of Forza Horizon 5 are the best, as a whole, in the series?

    Question for @Brannox
    How do you feel about the level of difficulty ramping up through the game? Do you think it paces out well in that regard?

    Question for @DIPSET
    Does the gameplay evolve enough throughout the game in the way it handles stealth, or is it just sort of the same way to handle each situation?



  • This post is deleted!


  • Also, I am gonna try and answer my questions, as of right now, by tonight! As I'm going on a trip tomorrow and might not have ample enough time!



  • @bruno_saurus said in The EZA Forum Hall of Greats (September 2022):

    Question for @Oscillator

    How do you feel Star Fox 64 stands against its predecessor (official) in Star Fox on the SNES besides the better graphics of course?

    I wouldn't say it's better graphics than it actually HAS graphics. :P Star Fox SNES is immensely primitive in comparison, with polygons you can just about count on both hands, painfully slow framerate, virtually no textures, gibberish for voices, and very basic gameplay. You shoot stuff, but you don't feel rewarded for it. Still, it's very impressive for the hardware, the ship and enemy designs are memorable, and the soundtrack is solid; it's a shame its themes weren't remixed for 64.

    Star Fox 64 is the full realization of what Star Fox SNES wanted to do. You actually feel like you're flying a space fighter rather than a distant, abstract representation.



  • Response to @bruno_saurus question about core tenants of Forza Horizon 5 being the best in the series.

    Sorry for my bad English, I don’t know what “tenants” mean in this context. I assumed it means “aspects”, but if I’m wrong, please correct me and I’ll re-answer this question.

    I’ve played only Forza Horizon 3, 4 and 5 and among those three the latest entry definitely feels the most polished and fun to play. I’m not an expert on racing games and I don’t have a driver license, so it hard for me to state something like “handling on mud is better here” or “track design is more competitive here”, but as a casual player I see no reasons to recommend any entry instead of Forza Horizon 5.



  • Questions for @Brannox :

    1. I haven't played Doom II in a very, very long time, so perhaps I just wasn't any good at it back then, but I feel like it was very difficult right off the bat, with just a couple waves of basic enemies making me desperate for health, and a larger enemy mowing me down mercilessly every time. Does Doom II ease you in or does it immediately assault you like I seem to remember?

    2. Have the pseudo-3D, heavily pixelated visuals harmed how it stands up against later entries in the genre, in particular id Software's very next major release, Quake?



  • The Chronicles of Riddick: Escape From Butcher Bay

    Answer # 4

    @JDINCINERATOR

    @DIPSET regarding The Chronicles of Riddick: Escape From Butcher Bay
    Do you think Escape From Butcher Bay languishes in the past two much to be any significant to the here and now?

    While I think history and context is really important in analyzing older games, I think Escape From Butcher Bay is still relevant today both historically and from a game design standpoint. In terms of the here and now, we live in an era of pretty quality licensed video games.

    I feel like ambitious licensed games like Riddick walked so Batman Arkham Asylum can run. I guess Escape From Butcher Bay isn't at the top of most gamers heads when we talk about modern gaming, but I think it definitely paved the way for Machine Games to be successful and significant mainstream AAA developer.

    --

    Answer #5

    Is there anything from Butcher Bay that you feel today’s shooters could do with implementing?

    Escape With Butcher Bay was made with love and wasn't trend chasing. The game design compliments the source material to a tee. The premise of escaping from a prison compliments the film Pitch Black (the game used to be called Pitch Black FYI) where people needed to survive on an alien planet before all hell breaks loose. Take a core concept and go crazy with the game design.

    So if I have one takeaway, it's that not every shooter needs to worry about TTK and slide canceling. Riddick and it's contemporaries all had their own spin on the core gameplay being outside of just shooting. Riddick seamlessly blended stealth, melee, and gunplay.

    Modern games should really consider how hegemonized they've become with the same controls, same jump height, same ADS, same menu's. Devs should look to Escape From Butcher Bay and get creative with it and pave your own path.



  • @jdincinerator said in The EZA Forum Hall of Greats (September 2022):

    @Shoulderguy regarding X-COM: Enemy Unknown

    I suck at strategy games and I find many of them difficult to grasp and enjoy. How could you ease me into X-COM: Enemy Unknown without tuning out?

    Do you think X-COM: Enemy Unknown is largely overlooked for a great game?

    1.) I get that, I'm the same way but for fighting games. There are some strategy games like Total War that I'm hesitant to recommend to people who are new to the series. Though In my opinion, XCOM: Enemy Unknown is one of the friendliest to newcomers. I had never played an XCOM style game before this game and now I'm huge fan of them.

    2.) I don't think it's overlooked. When it released in 2012 it won many GOTY awards from different media outlets and received much praise from fans. Since that time, XCOM-like games have become more common. We have Mario + Rabbids: Sparks of Hope releasing next month, Marvel's Midnight Suns releasing in December and there are more games in development. That style of strategy game existed before XCOM: Enemy Unknown but it's recognized by most people as the game that boosted their popularity.



  • The Chronicles of Riddick: Escape From Butcher Bay

    Answer #6

    @bruno_saurus

    Question for @DIPSET
    Does the gameplay evolve enough throughout the game in the way it handles stealth, or is it just sort of the same way to handle each situation?

    Without getting into spoiler territory, let's just say your stealth abilities dramatically improve in Act II after your escape kicks into gear. This means the Intro / Act I plays similar, but your power as a player has some limitations which get easier later on.

    I'd say the game pace overall sort of fluctuates what you're doing. If I had to pick ONE easy way of describing the game, think of it like an action-adventure. In, say, Uncharted, you aren't always in gunfights. Sometimes you are walking and talking, sometimes you're sneaking around, sometimes you are climbing. Escape From Butcher Bay is like that.

    Some of the stealth is Point A --> Point B sneaking around going from shadows and ledges above enemies or platforming around (kinda like Splinter Cell), but sometimes the stealth is active combat where you're closing the gap and trying to shank a guard in the back of his neck and dragging the bodies into shadows.

    Sometimes the Point A --> Point B has a lot of verticality and sometimes it's has seriously deadly mech suit guards all in a confined space on the same floor as you and sneaking is a tight squeeze.



  • @ffff0 regarding FORZA HORIZON 5

    I read your answer to @JDINCINERATOR so I hate to double down on this, but FH4 was my first Forza Horizon game in 2018. I put in around 40ish hours before moving on and completed a lot of the activities. Since you brough FH5, I figured I'd finally give it a try and I put a few hours in so far. And I have to say, I feel like I'm playing the exact same game that I played as recently as 2 years ago with no deviation.

    So my question is this - YOU are in charge for making Forza Horizon 6. What needs to be added or changed to make the series stay fresh?

    We need to get a racing game into our Hall of Greats and FH5 is genuinely a great candidate but I want to compare it to other potential great's as well. If we go back to the original racing festival video game series, Motorstorm, there is a distinct attention to thrilling track design. In FH5, the circuits are small and samey. The rally style tracks take place in the same open world that you drive around normally, but this time there are a few flag marker checkpoints. Nothing is bespoke.

    So my question is this - Is the lack of great or even good track design not a major knock against Forza Horizon 5? If not, what qualities do you think the game brings to table to nullify this shortcoming?

    --

    --

    @Brannox regarding DOOM II

    So I need to preface this by letting people know that if they have any questions about newcomers to DOOM II, I only played DOOM II for the first time in my life this weekend. It's my first DOOM game in the OG series and I am completely blown away by it. I have had more fun in the first hour of DOOM II than I did for the entirety of DOOM 2016. [RHETORICAL] Why do people not talk about OG DOOM series enough?! Haha

    I told some friends how I finally tried DOOM II and how blown away I was and they asked me which version I was playing. In which I replied, "Dunno — whatever is on Game Pass". In which they said, "The PSX version is way better and has a completely different tone, atmosphere, and music"

    So I looked up the PSX music and I was pretty shocked at how different it is. It makes the version I was playing feel cartoony and whimsical by comparison.

    So my question is this - Do the distinctions in the various versions of DOOM II make it hard to discuss the game as one whole? I ask because it seems like different people had dramatically different experiences with the same game.

    Tell me about the modding in DOOM II. On cursory research, it seems like this game has had community support for the entirety of my life. Some of these mods looks nuts. How does it impact your personal experience with the game?

    --

    Thanks to both of you!



  • FYI I know there's a lot going on in this thread right now, so I'll make an aggregation of all of the questions and answers before the end of the day.



  • Answering @ffff0's Question regarding the Single-Take Camera

    I personally love the One-Shot Take. I can see where you’re coming from with performance wise, but another game in around the same time frame, Horizon Zero Dawn a game I love, load times were pretty long. At least in regards to God of War, when you do have those interstitial moments of traveling between realms, you have a tad more engagement with Mimir talking and you’re walking with Atreus. And the areas of Yggdrasil, the life tree are wonderful looking.

    At least as well you have areas you can go. To and from with these doors, which are loading screens, but you do get interesting conversations with Mimir which I do appreciate. And early on without Mimir, you have talks with Atreus to at least showcase some stuff without silence in the tree.

    It also brings you closer to Kratos and see the emotions he’s having through that closeness which I highly appreciate after the Greek Mythology saga!



  • Answering @Phbz questions regarding Atreus's mood change & Extra Worlds in regards to Cut Content

    While that moment is sort of sudden, narratively it still makes sense to me. He just learned that he’s part God, and we already know from previous context he gets “sick”, which seems to basically be just him going in a rage and blacking out, so there’s potential that he has of being rageful in the past. So him learning he's part God basically gets him to be non-caring about his own actions as if they have any consequence. Power hungry type of thing. So sure it could’ve been smoothed over a lot, but contextually it makes sense still even if it was intended to be a longer section.


    In regards to cut content with worlds like Musphelheim and Niflheim, these two realms I enjoyed how they varied exploration and combat in different ways. Musphelheim was basically the traditional God of War Trial of the Gods stuff that was optional in the Greek mythology games, just more directly in the game's story this time.

    Niflheim wise, it feels like a good puzzle area of death traps and trying to manage the mist and what areas you want to explore first. I recall it being confusing at times, but rewarding when you finish it all. They might’ve had set in stone what realms were in the game at the start, and we’ll cut stuff from there if needed (which obviously happened).

    In connection with your question about Atreus himself, they might’ve just wanted to have some more varied stuff in the entirety of the game. But I feel they’re valid to be there and in a Niflheim sense, you get context to show how ruthless Odin can be, in this case with Ivaldi!



  • Answering @Brannox's Questions Regarding Labors and Gear Layouts/Tactics

    While you do get a lot of XP from these, not all of them are combat based. Some are exploration based encouraging you to find Myths, Armor, and such! Which adds to the lore you discover throughout the world. They can definitely be better integrated into Ragnarok, but at that initial glance, it can be seen as just busy work with the enemies. You do learn about the world and your enemies at least!


    I feel like the game justifies attempting to have the player switch loadouts and tactics. You might want to pair up your Talismans or Enchantments with what arrows you like with Atreus to maximize the effectiveness of those types of arrows. With Runics I love how they each look and they have different types of effects like freezing enemies or pushing them back.

    In fights against Travelers, you do just bash them with your axe or Blades, yes but it varies in ways in maneuvering. If a Traveler is holding up an orb, you better throw your axe at it or you’ll lose a lot of health. Or if a Traveler has a shield at its back, that presents more of a tactic change within just how you use your axe and Atreus as a tandem. Then, Ancients aren’t affected by your axe until you throw one of their projectiles back at them, so there’s variety at least there. However, yes the tactic is throw the projectile and then use your axe.

    Loadout wise think that’s just the choice of the player how deep they wanna dive into all of that. I think with the amount of great options it does give, that incentivizes myself enough to switch up some stuff leading into finishing the game.



  • Response to @DIPSET questions about what should be changed in Forza Horizon 6 and lack of great track design in Forza Horizon 5.

    Unfortunately, I will not be able to answer your first question, because I don’t feel like anything is lacking in Forza Horizon 5. I mean, I can name a few things that can be better, like character animations during mission introductions, but then I take those ideas back, because I realize that they will not improve the game (this is not a character-driven game, it’s a game about cars). I’m sure developers will come up with something interesting, but that’s why they are making games and I’m only playing them. And, by the way, initially I had similar “more of the same” feeling regarding Forza Horizon 5, but the game grew on me eventually.

    As for the lack of great tracks – yes, rooting routes in open-world environments require some compromises and games that feature actual racing tracks will always win in this regard. However dedicated tracks mean lesser number of tracks in the game, which means that you’ll be either done with the game relatively quickly, or you’ll be driving the same laps. This isn’t quality over quantity argument, this is just two different styles on racing games (like arcade racers and driving sims), and each style speaks to different audiences. I don’t think we should debate which style is more deserving to be in Hall of Greats, just like we didn’t debate whether we should have a JRPG or western-RPG. We picked both.



  • Apologies for the late responses, but now I've got some time. Onto it then:

    From @bruno_saurus regarding ramping up difficulty and it being paced well:

    Yes I do, because of a mixture of the weapons you're given (and when you get them), the types of enemies you go against (and the increasing amount), and the difficulty modes. In the first level, you go up against zombie soldiers and imps, but eventually, it progressively gives you more variety until a boss level. At which point, they're supposed to be the most challenging moments by introducing a unique looking and quite powerful creature, and if you best them, the following level or two is a step below as a means to give you an opportunity to regroup, before steadily ramping up again, all culminating with the Icon of Sin, which throws SO MANY demons at you (and they never stop respawning). Think of difficulty in numerical terms: (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 7, 8, 9, and so on)


    From @Oscillator regarding difficulty right at the start:

    This kind of ties into my answer to @bruno_saurus above, but unless you pick one of the highest difficulty levels, the first few levels are quite nice in giving you a manageable amount of demons and plenty of ammo to take them down. As I said in my presentation, the first room gives you just two enemies, the hallway has one or two more, the room to the left has an additional two, and the large room has about four (and the exit room has one final imp dependent on your chosen difficulty). The next level has quite a few more enemies, but not any different types, so it's a progression.

    From @Oscillator regarding it's visuals harming it and it standing up to modern games and contemporaries:

    Absolutely I believe it stands up today, but that comes down to the caveat of 1.) All art is subjective and 2.) Different art design showcases different preferences of different people. To use your example of Quake, I only played that for the first time in the last year or two, and I really enjoy it's design of more modern architecture and external environments. But even still, the demonic style of DOOM is more my jam, especially considering (for me), I never struggle in discerning what I'm looking at. I can tell what kind of enemy is on screen, what kind of texture is on a wall, what kind of weapon is on the ground, etc., all with a glance, as opposed to taking a second of looking at the screen and thinking, "What in the world is... Oooohhh." I had a time or two in Quake. DOOM as a whole also stands out because of its ability to be played on practically anything with a screen (more on that in my answer to @DIPSET below), and it's really easy to know what your looking at. Overall one of DOOM II's defining qualities is how it looks to the point of being iconic.


    From @DIPSET regarding distinctions between different versions (ports?) of DOOM II:

    Potentially, because unlike the first DOOM where I know of many versions (OG DOOM, Brutal DOOM, Ultimate DOOM, etc.), I only know of the OG PC version, which I thought was the version ported to 360, and that's what I've been referencing (Not the DOOM 3 BFG Edition or the version in DOOM: Eternal). To the point I didn't know of the PSX version. HOWEVER, I don't think it really takes away from any version, nor does it make it difficult to discuss, because it's practically the same levels/enemies/weapons/etc. All that said, the fact you say it blew you away and had so much fun... I don't need it to be nominated to begin with, but I'm even more OK with it not getting in now (and would be fine with a ban) because it fills me with so much joy to know one person gave a game I love a shot and found value in it. And if you find a way to give the PSX version a shot and prefer to it to the Game Pass version, then fantastic.

    From @DIPSET regarding about the modding community:

    Modding and UGC has been a massive reason why it's endured for so long. The ability for people to create their own stuff on such a simple but immensely satisfying gameplay loop has been a hallmark of the DOOM community and id has leaned into it HARD. When they rebooted the series and opened Bethesda's first ever E3 press conference (my personal favorite presentation of Bethesda's by the by), there's a reason they spent a third of their slot on SnapMap. Because the ability to open up creation tools to the community can provide endless replay value. But back to DOOM II. Personally: I've always played on my 360 (that I remember. My Dad says the first two DOOMs and Wolfenstein 3D were my first games but I highly doubt that), so for not playing on PC, I personally haven't had the experience with mods, but the knowledge PC players have that option and opening up a whole new world of possibilities further showcases how much of an excellent game it is. And DOOM is FAMOUS of being up on EVERYTHING: Printers, graphic calculators, refrigerators, and even PREGNANCY TESTS for God's sake. So many modders out there are way too creative. Or have way too much time on their hands. Or both. Yeah. Both.