The International 2106



  • Anyone watching this? I don't play Dota (despite numerous attempts to do so, I'm just too stupid) but holy moly do I love watching it. This year's games have been AMAZING

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  • I don't think I will live 100 more years.



  • @Musou-Tensei 90 actually. :3

    Completely forgot this was occuring tbh.



  • took me the longest time to spot my typo. lol



  • I play Dota 2 on and off but I don't think the game or the competitive scene is all that good. I also don't like how Valve values esports (and cosmetics) over making sure the game is good.



  • TI is always a crazy time. Really enjoying this one as well. Highest respect to Icefrog been digging the patches generally since TI5. I love the fight oriented meta that does allow for reasonable swings.

    It was dark times when he just was trying to find out what amount of comeback gold is healthy + troll sniper remains my most hated patch as an avid support player. And I mean the amount of heroes picked being generally insanely high over the year.
    That's generally such an achievement in my mind, def most in tune with how dota is handling balance in general. Whereas when I think about all the blizz games since Vanilla WoW, their philosophy on balance can be insanely frustrating.

    Small pride moments for me this TI was being able to call a good number of smokes beforehand meaning that I've gotten a little better at reading movement and gamestate since last year.



  • @ChaosBahamut No one likes a smart ass >A>



  • @Holundrian said in The International 2106:

    TI is always a crazy time. Really enjoying this one as well. Highest respect to Icefrog been digging the patches generally since TI5. I love the fight oriented meta that does allow for reasonable swings.

    It was dark times when he just was trying to find out what amount of comeback gold is healthy + troll sniper remains my most hated patch as an avid support player. And I mean the amount of heroes picked being generally insanely high over the year.
    That's generally such an achievement in my mind, def most in tune with how dota is handling balance in general. Whereas when I think about all the blizz games since Vanilla WoW, their philosophy on balance can be insanely frustrating.

    The comeback thing is still very noticable and (in my opinion) very dumb. I also don't like how they made offlane into a joke. These things and more actually made the game less fun to play.



  • @suplextrain

    I like the current comeback gold. It is noticeable. I mean why shouldn't it be because then what's the point, it makes watching Dota way more tense I never want to go back to TI4 times of insane tempo stomps.

    It also disciplines for way cleaner play at least it did for me. You become very mindful of where and when you can be on the map and show yourself as well a more pronounced risk for farming in enemy jungle. It's done the game a lot of good, also speaking from a pub perspective during the TI4 patch people would give up very easily the last year people generally try way longer before they throw in the towel.

    I definitely enjoy the game way more this way. As for offlane, calling it a joke is pretty reductive. But yeah there are problems, but I'm sure they're going to be tweaked.
    For now I just enjoy that iron talon/tome allows a lot more heroes to be played which is a decent tradeoff.

    For me Dota has been consistently a great experience the past year even motivating me to really work on my play but opinions and such.

    The only thing that I hope for at this point is maybe more tweaking patches instead of these huge patch bombs despite them working out pretty well generally.

    If we get into nitty gritty specifics though, huskar needs to be reworked that hero is stupid.



  • @Holundrian said in The International 2106:

    @suplextrain
    I like the current comeback gold. It is noticeable. I mean why shouldn't it be because then what's the point, it makes watching Dota way more tense I never want to go back to TI4 times of insane tempo stomps.

    Yeah, they made that change to make esports more "entertaining" to watch since there are far more back and forth swings and comebacks are handed out on silver platters for nothing. I generally don't like comeback mechanics (since a comeback should be a result of skill) but in Dota 2 it is even worse, especially when you actually play the game yourself.

    It also disciplines for way cleaner play at least it did for me. You become very mindful of where and when you can be on the map and show yourself as well a more pronounced risk for farming in enemy jungle. It's done the game a lot of good, also speaking from a pub perspective during the TI4 patch people would give up very easily the last year people generally try way longer before they throw in the towel.

    That was always the case, to be mindful of not messing up. But right now it punishes heroes on the leading team severely for simply dying once when the opponents have died several times (or farmed exceptionally poorly), equalizing that work in one swoop. That is not good game design. This becomes even worse if for example the hero that did well was a hero that is strong early on but falls off happened to get killed by one that scales well late but is weak early. No real sport punishes the ones in the lead this harshly and rewards the ones behind massively. Imagine if in soccer a team that is behind by 3 or more goals earns 2 or even 3 goals from a single goal. It's dumb.

    I definitely enjoy the game way more this way.

    That's fine, I simply enjoy watching and playing the game less and less when they focus more on balacing it for esports (as in not the players themselves, but the viewers).

    As for offlane, calling it a joke is pretty reductive. But yeah there are problems, but I'm sure they're going to be tweaked.
    For now I just enjoy that iron talon/tome allows a lot more heroes to be played which is a decent tradeoff.

    It's not just Iron Talon, but the changes to the camps, XP and so on. Before playing offlane took skill and was way more of a bigger deal. Now the "offlaner" doesn't even have to show up to lane. It changed the game massively in a negative way. The matter of allowing more heroes to "offlane" is deceptive since people think this makes the game more balanced, when it actually does the opposite. It throws the balance and design of the game out the window.

    For me Dota has been consistently a great experience the past year even motivating me to really work on my play but opinions and such.

    For me it's a mixed bag. Some things have gotten better, but a lot of things have gotten worse. That's why I find myself playing the game less and less.

    The only thing that I hope for at this point is maybe more tweaking patches instead of these huge patch bombs despite them working out pretty well generally.

    Valve already worked pretty inefficiently, but with the introduction of the Majors patch bombs are now guaranteed since they now only have select windows where they can release patches.

    If we get into nitty gritty specifics though, huskar needs to be reworked that hero is stupid.

    Huskar? I think a lot of heroes are poorly designed. Phantom Assassin, Phantom Lancer, Bloodseeker, Techies, etc.
    Many of the general balances changes make little sense as well, but at least Valve has toned down on copying bad balance suggestions from reddit.

    Now I might sound overly negative, but it's just dissapointment speaking. The game isn't heading where I hoped it would.



  • So honestly I've always been a League of Legends player much more than DOTA, though I gave it a solid try. That said, The International is one of only two (the other being EVO) e-sports competitions that I care enough to watch despite not playing any of the featured games. It's just a good time.



  • I've read that soccer analogy so often and it just doesn't work. No sport known to me progresses in a way where it gets significantly harder to score points as the opposition is winning.

    And I totally disagree with your assessment of not messing up being necessary. Pre comeback cold carries would pull the most bs shit and you would punish them but it didn't really matter. The style where you could very quickly get opponents to a place where they can't even leave the base was awful. I also hate the win early win all thing that was going on back then it killed tons of interesting compositions/strategies.

    Comeback gold makes it possible outplay out of your disadvantages and brings that quality of most sports to dota where teams can turn over decent leads.
    If you look back at the last few years of comp dota it also shows in the rising prominence of smoke.

    Also the one mistake totally equalizing is overblown.
    The nature of dota currently has volatile leads that carry less emphasis nevertheless any lead will make the game easier for your to win but the main thing that will close out games is skill/execution. You can't just play these efficiency only style(like playing the map, being super efficient on movements, etc) more where you just get to a point where you out resource the opposition and they can't deal with you anymore. Nowadays those kind of resource leads are only gained through teamfights and a big part of what makes those leads really decisive are hero death timers.

    In the end it all comes down to preference it seems.
    Especially as a support I've been enjoying the state of the game immensely and it has gotten overall better(gold changes, wind lace, rain drops, etc).
    The only times I almost stopped playing was when techies was insanely popular and sniper/troll era.

    But I do get the sentiment of the game not going in a personally preferable direction.
    This is my life with blizzard games. Get hooked on that one core key gameplay moment. Be addicted because you want to experience that moment over and over only to get insanely insanely frustrated by Blizzards balance philosophies.
    It's actually insane how often this happened (Vanilla WoW Paladins, Starcraft 2 broodlord infestor, SC2:HotS Swarmhost, Diablo 3 AH -> Item balance, stat balance, Hearthstone general card balance and over rnging the game.)



  • @Holundrian said in The International 2106:

    I've read that soccer analogy so often and it just doesn't work. No sport known to me progresses in a way where it gets significantly harder to score points as the opposition is winning.

    Here's the thing, in Dota 2 you can still outplay your opponent when you're behind (this was true before this comeback mechanic thing) but now it's less important and coming back basically only takes 1 or 2 executed smoke ganks or whatever. Before split pushing was an effective strat but it has not only been severely nerfed but also made less important. Why? Because people that didn't understand the game well (most viewers) thought it was "boring" to "rat". This is just one thing. I have lost count of all the things they have removed or significantly toned down that the average viewer thought was "boring". This is what I mean when Valve started to balance the game after esport. This on the other hand dumbed the game down and made it worse to play.
    As someone with thousands of hours played this made the game strictly less fun to play (and watch). Hence why I play and watch it less and less.

    And I totally disagree with your assessment of not messing up being necessary. Pre comeback cold carries would pull the most bs shit and you would punish them but it didn't really matter. The style where you could very quickly get opponents to a place where they can't even leave the base was awful. I also hate the win early win all thing that was going on back then it killed tons of interesting compositions/strategies.

    Feel free to disagree, but that doesn't change a thing. You seem to think that pre-comeback patches mistakes for the leading team "didn't matter", when they did. The difference being that back then the leading team wasn't severely punished for 1-2 mistakes or outplays (which they had to earn through even more outplays which caused the other team to fall behind in the first place).
    The players in the lead earned their lead, so why should it be given away so easily now? If you're behind you should refocus and outplay the opponent in some way. Before one of those ways was split pushing, but as I said that was nerfed for being "boring" to the average viewer, removing effective options and in fact dumbing the game down making it more boring for the more advanced/knowledgeable players (which are not a majority). But who cares about them, right?

    Also the one mistake totally equalizing is overblown.
    The nature of dota currently has volatile leads that carry less emphasis nevertheless any lead will make the game easier for your to win but the main thing that will close out games is skill/execution. You can't just play these efficiency only style(like playing the map, being super efficient on movements, etc) more where you just get to a point where you out resource the opposition and they can't deal with you anymore. Nowadays those kind of resource leads are only gained through teamfights and a big part of what makes those leads really decisive are hero death timers.

    Have you even realized the kind of gold swings that can happen from your position 1 (that has good farm and kda) dying? He's not just giving gold and xp to a single enemy hero, just heroes in the vicinity (since heroes no longer even need to interact with the dying heroes). Watch matches in-game, pause and take a look at gold-graphs sometime.
    Has it been worse? Yes. But that doesn't change the fact that it's still pretty bad. As you said you're only comparing it to the extremes like during the "sniper troll" patch which skres you view.

    In the end it all comes down to preference it seems.

    Of course, but not for me. I am no longer the target audience so my interest is at an all-time low. I uninstalled the game last month and so far I haven't felt like re-installing it. I haven't even watched a single match of TI6 either despite getting gifted a battle pass.

    Especially as a support I've been enjoying the state of the game immensely and it has gotten overall better(gold changes, wind lace, rain drops, etc).

    Of course, they have made supporting super easy now. Couriers, wards, tp scrolls and more have all seen price reduction while new items and gameplay implementations have been made to make it all easier. Before stuff like rotations, timings and so on were more important.
    Not really a complaint per se, but it is a piece of the overall shift to dumb the game down, making it easier and more fun for the average more casual viewer/player. But as I said, I am not in that camp so it doesn't benefit me.

    But I do get the sentiment of the game not going in a personally preferable direction.
    This is my life with blizzard games. Get hooked on that one core key gameplay moment. Be addicted because you want to experience that moment over and over only to get insanely insanely frustrated by Blizzards balance philosophies.
    It's actually insane how often this happened (Vanilla WoW Paladins, Starcraft 2 broodlord infestor, SC2:HotS Swarmhost, Diablo 3 AH -> Item balance, stat balance, Hearthstone general card balance and over rnging the game.)

    I think current neo Blizzard is no longer a good dev. All they they is release dissapointment after dissapointment for me. They will need to shift around some positions for me to start caring about their products again.
    Both Valve and Blizzard are devs that went from the highest of highs but are down just on a steady decline, which makes me sad since I used to love them.



  • I mean I would be more receptive to continue this discussion if you weren't so condescending I realize being 4.6k I may not understand certain things yet but I do have to scratch my head reading some of your "do you realize". Or game is dumbed down arguments.

    They seem fairly nonsensical when I supplement my subpar understanding of the game with pro player statements, the state of the competition, the amount of style variety you see in pro play, etc.

    Also some statements just don't make sense to me. Rotations are still important. Support being super easy? What...
    That's not really the point of those changes if anything support play has become a lot more dynamic allowing a lot more viable moves at every point in the game. And I mean you can disagree and say it isn't so like with how punishing mistakes totally mattered before but my pub experience as well as TI4 being snowbally as hell speaks for itself.
    The impact of punishing mistakes was miniscule.



  • @Holundrian said in The International 2106:

    I mean I would be more receptive to continue this discussion if you weren't so condescending I realize being 4.6k I may not understand certain things yet but I do have to scratch my head reading some of your "do you realize". Or game is dumbed down arguments.

    I am not condecending. I am simply saying that I am annoyed because Valve caters and balances the game around the casual audience. This is understandable but I am not in that camp so it doesn't make me happy.
    I don't look down on anyone here and I even considered at one point of make an extensive tutorial video series but with my waning interest in the game that ended up not taking off. The only people I look down on in Dota 2 are the people that flame excessively and intentionally ruin matches.

    They seem fairly nonsensical when I supplement my subpar understanding of the game with pro player statements, the state of the competition, the amount of style variety you see in pro play, etc.

    You're saying that removing or significantly toning down elements that take skill or options in general isn't simplifying it ("dumbing it down")? What do you call it? Streamlining?
    To clarifiy, I am not looking down on or belittling you, I am wondering how you can't see it when I have pointed it out, which to me points at you not having the same level of in-depth knowledge and or understanding as me, which makes discussing this game difficult on an equal level since it's a game all about knowledge.

    Also some statements just don't make sense to me. Rotations are still important. Support being super easy? What...

    Please re-read what I said.

    That's not really the point of those changes if anything support play has become a lot more dynamic allowing a lot more viable moves at every point in the game. And I mean you can disagree and say it isn't so like with how punishing mistakes totally mattered before but my pub experience as well as TI4 being snowbally as hell speaks for itself.

    Based on this you started playing around Ti4 or slightly before? Or did you just watch it back then?
    We're also not on the same page at all here when you claim that supporting has become more "dynamic" after making supporting much easier (reduced gold costs on common support items, reworking assists, reworking kill gold, numerous warding changes, more cheaper items for supports, etc.). Do you mean dynamic as in allowing you to screw around more?

    The impact of punishing mistakes was miniscule.

    No it wasn't. But here's the problem. You think that mistakes of the ones in the lead should be punished severely otherwise they're meaningless. You think that if you're behind you shouldn't have to earn you way back into the lead from several well executed decisions and plays, but instead that easy swings are better. Why? Because the team in the lead gets stronger. You like the more forgiving approach of making repeated mistakes mean less.
    I don't like this kind of game design one bit, especially when it's mainly just to make the average viewer watching esports have more fun with more back and forth swings and comebacks. Why? Because I am a player with thousands of hours played and not your average viewer. Valve chose to no longer focus on me, so that makes it hard for me to care about them or their products anymore, like TI6.

    But this discussion isn't going anywhere for numerous reasons, so I don't see much point in continuing it.
    I think you would be better off trying to discuss the TI6 event and whatever they showed there (possibly Pit Lord during the all-star match?) instead.



  • Well dunno but telling me I would be better of not discussing the game but the event instead how is that not condescending? You don't provide background to your knowledge or in depth explanations and all your reasoning for dumbed down are shallow as hell ignoring tons of nuance that the changes carried coupled with it not even reflecting in the reality that pro players seem to live in who have praised the state of the game for the past year especially pronouncing how hard drafting was at several points it makes me doubt if considering your view carries real value.



  • @Holundrian said in The International 2106:

    Well dunno but telling me I would be better of not discussing the game but the event instead how is that not condescending?

    This is a thread about TI6, not the game. I'm sorry if I thought it would be a good idea to get back on topic when the off-topic discussion wasn't going anywhere. If you consider that condescending then go right ahead, but that doesn't change the fact that I never was.

    If you want to discuss the game, then make a thread about the game.



  • I mean I haven't started this whole thing but yeah got to admit that it feels rather cheap to go on those ramblings and then tell others to make a thread about a topic you started on just to reply to it. Nvm the fact that I don't see a problem with discussing the metagame/balance in a tournier thread or else I would have never replied in the first place, I mean to me if I had told you right there at that point make a different thread if you want to discuss the game that would be just weird and kind of stuck up for me.

    Love & Respect dude don't be close minded on where the discussion goes just when it fits you.



  • To try and get this thread back on track I looked up some of the announcements at TI6. The most notable ones being the reveal of Underlord and the announcement of Monkey King.

    Also congrats to the winners of TI6, Wings Gaming. It seems like the east and west are taking turns to become champs at TI.

    @Holundrian said in The International 2106:

    I mean I haven't started this whole thing but yeah got to admit that it feels rather cheap to go on those ramblings and then tell others to make a thread about a topic you started on just to reply to it. Nvm the fact that I don't see a problem with discussing the metagame/balance in a tournier thread or else I would have never replied in the first place, I mean to me if I had told you right there at that point make a different thread if you want to discuss the game that would be just weird and kind of stuck up for me.

    Love & Respect dude don't be close minded on where the discussion goes just when it fits you.

    This is my final comment, but only to give you a heads up on what you're doing since you're not making this thread anymore pleasant to post in. There is very little "love & respect" in your message. You have consistently called me a bunch of things, tried to label me and accuse me. In this message you try and somehow shift the "blame" to me while shifting the narrative to suit your purposes. You then finally call me stuck up for thinking that we should stay on topic and suggesting that you create a thread where the subject is to do precisely what you want to do. What we're discussing is not at all related to TI6 since it's not only about a game design shift over several years but also Valve's policy shift. You're the one that started going into rants and I had no intention for this discussion to last this long. Stop pointing all the fingers at me when you're just as much a part of it as I am.

    Don't say "Love & Respect" if you don't even mean it and literally end it by not showing any love or respect. You only said it to try and come off as the "nice guy" while you have consistently tried to label me as some condescending stuck up close-minded asshole when I have never shown any ill will towards you ITT. I never even went on to label you or accuse you of anything.
    Do you even realize how passive aggressive you are?

    This is starting to turn ugly so I will not reply to you anymore since I don't see this ending well.



  • You're free to not reply and project a bunch of stuff on my post like I don't mean Love and Respect or how I'm passive aggressive. I mean I would have rather not replied but I do feel like this needs to be straightened out when you accuse me of so many things in your last post.

    First of all if my posts in any way came off in a way to encourage this behavior I apologize nonetheless. I will say that I'm no English native speaker so I will say that it's definitely possible for things not coming off in a way that I intended them to.

    That said when I read these post again you're the one that started being all condescending questioning if I have the correct game knowledge, etc. while giving rather shallow explanations that I just don't think anyone that's clearly above me in knowledge would give(based off on talking with far higher ranked friends).

    It's just crazy to me to get hung up on the most superficial impacts on changes and in the same breath not even understanding what I mean when I say the support game has become way more dynamic when it wasn't that long ago when a friend spend like 30 minutes to educate me on the impact that windlace has for the early game.

    You provide no background to your knowledge so of course I'm going to doubt you, there is not malice in that. That's really about the only thing I did doubting your information while providing background to my own and definitely reserving the possibility of lacking the right information.

    As for unpleasant or blame shifting not my intention but the facts are you were the one starting being condescending, the one trying to dodge the conversation once I raised doubts and it got hard(and somehow interpreting that as passive aggressive), somehow telling me that I'm not sincere in my Love & Respect(cause I am I say it as a reminder that we always should try to be more empathetic in every discussion, it seems I failed on that front for you to act this way) while in the end just resorting to the shut everything down tactic and talk about how this is turning ugly.

    To be honest this just feels like the standard routine of an ugly forum conversation(I mean how can it not be when you end your last post in a bunch of accusations that are just not based in reality instead of addressing my doubts) born out of one party needing to be right more than needing to be understood.

    At least that's how I felt about this conversation and that's after reading everything twice.

    Nevertheless I do want you to know Love and Respect sincerely even if you don't believe me in the end it's just silly forums squabbles and I want to believe mostly born out of the lack of the usual safeguards you have when talking face to face like inflection and face expressions and the reactive nature of posting.
    I hope future discussions will be more amicable.