@DIPSET I'm a BIG fan of the original THPS trilogy. I enjoyed THUG, but had no desire to replay it. I thought the characters were all right, the soundtrack was all right, and the mechanics were all right. But I thought the level design was where it fell flat. The way I see it, is that starting with THPS 4, the series' level design switched from tight and flowing to big and ungainly.

I have two questions stemming from this:

1. Do you think the larger levels of those later titles, THUG included, hold up against or exceed the smaller levels of old, and if so, why?

2. For a less apples-and-oranges comparison, there is Project 8, which I enjoyed the most out of all the later titles. Coming a few entries after THUG, it has generally the same objective system and mechanics, but uses a hybrid of the early and later level design style by stitching together many smaller, tighter areas to make one large open world. How do you think the level design philosophy of 4, THUG, et al compares against Project 8's?

@capnbobamous said in The EZA Forum Hall of Greats (September 2021):

Question for @Oscillator regarding Majora's Mask:

You mention in your response to ffff0 that your enjoyment of the game increased a lot with the use of a guide. Do you think the game is a worse experience if you play it blind?

Yes. It would still be a great experience because of the world and characters, but there are several parts of the game that are confusing and/or stressful. I know some people have quit pretty much right out of the gate because they couldn't figure out how to complete the first mission - parts of it are kind of vague. Once you get past it though, the main quest feels just like Ocarina of Time, just with the time loop mechanic. Confusing stuff doesn't really appear again until the back half of the game.

What would definitely cause the most stress without a guide is not finding the hidden song to slow time down. In particular, the apex of the ranch quest I mentioned in my previous post can be failed with the slightest mistake at regular speed. Kyle said he quit the game at that part. :P There are also a pair of indoor Skulltula hunts that are pretty frustrating at any speed, the latter of which gives you different rewards depending on which day you complete it. >_< Finally, there is a mini dungeon right at the end of the game that is extremely difficult even WITH a guide. I think it took me something like 200 attempts. It's untimed, at least. Everything in this paragraph is optional though, so non-completionists will have a better time.

@ffff0 said in The EZA Forum Hall of Greats (September 2021):

Follow-up question to @Oscillator about The Legend of Zelda: Majora's Mask.

Previously I’ve asked you what positive aspects time loop mechanic bring to this game and what makes drawbacks of having time loop mechanic less dreadful than they seem from the outside? You’ve explained why this mechanic is less stressful than it seems, but you haven’t said what presence of this mechanic adds to the game. Can you talk about that?

Most of the NPCs in the game have their own personal schedule. They open up their businesses, go to meetings, make deliveries, and generally move around, usually just within the central hub of Clock Town, but sometimes in to/out of the outer regions as well, with their dialogue changing depending on where they are/what they're doing/what day it is. Learning these schedules to earn masks is the other half of the game aside from the main adventure.

The time loop also adds constant meaning to Link's adventure, as the moon gets physically closer each day, the music in Clock Town gets more intense, and NPCs panic more. The most atmospheric part of the game is the final hours of the last day each cycle, where a special countdown timer appears, the music changes through the entire world, the rumbling caused by the gravity of the moon is almost constant, and the NPCs reach the end of their schedules, hide in their homes, and enter peak acceptance/denial/fatalism/regret. Then Link goes back to the start of the cycle, and everything's bright and sunny again.

These schedules and waves of emotions are almost unique in the Zelda series. Breath of the Wild does have daily schedules for some NPCs, and strong emotions attached to the memories and some sidequests, but these elements are FAR more pronounced in Majora's Mask.

The time loop also gives a fresh feeling to the progression of the main adventure. It isn't a huge difference from other Zelda games, but clearing a lengthy pre-dungeon quest or dungeon close to the end of a cycle, getting a new key item, then starting a new cycle and using the key item to access the next area has a really nice rhythm.

There aren't many moments like this, but one of the best expressions of the time loop is the ranch where you find your horse. For the first third of the game, you can't get into the ranch until the third day because a giant rock is blocking the way and a man is slowly chipping away at it. But by the third day, something has happened to a young girl at the ranch, leaving her in a catatonic state, devastating her older sister, and stopping you from getting your horse. But then you get the ability to blow up the giant rock on the first day, and get to experience and help prevent the event that caused the travesty.

@Shoulderguy I edited my response to your question, as I remembered that the Slingshot from Ocarina of Time is not in Majora's Mask.

@shoulderguy said in The EZA Forum Hall of Greats (September 2021):

Question for @ffff0 @Brannox @JDINCINERATOR @DIPSET @Oscillator @Sentinel-Beach @Capnbobamous : Tell me about the Shotgun?

There are no guns in Majora's Mask. The closest thing to a shotgun is probably the Deku Scrub's bubble (the weakest projectile weapon in the game), which has to be charged, consumes a bit of magic, moves kind of slow, and does as much damage as expected of a magic spitball.

If you want to blow stuff up, there are regular bombs, the Bombchu which runs straight and sticks to any angle of terrain until the fuse runs out, the Blast Mask which gives Link the power of one bomb (with a short recharge) at any time, though it does a bit of damage to him (which gets negated if you raise your shield, somehow), and the biggest blast comes from the Powder Keg, which you can only carry one of at a time, is expensive, and can only be used by the Goron. It has a long fuse, but can be set off by shooting it with something. Its limitations mean you're likely to only ever use it for an objective that requires it rather than attacking enemies.

@brannox said in The EZA Forum Hall of Greats (September 2021):

For @Oscillator regarding The Legend of Zelda: Majora's Mask:
1.) I'm someone who has shied away from the Zelda franchise for the most part because in many cases I feel I get lost pretty easy as to what I need to do. In Majora's Mask's case, after watching a full playthrough of one the Allies, I was struck as to how they knew which NPC/quest was associated with a given mask, and there's nothing (that I saw) the game did to direct the player (without prior knowledge/playthroughs/etc.) as to what to do to get a particular reward. Does MM do a good enough job in demonstrating how to get particular masks/items/etc. outside of a journal of notes the player has already interacted with in prior cycles?

2.) From what I remember, to tie in with a previous answer you've given, the story is WEIRD. While watching the playthrough, at least at the outset, I felt I could follow along but by the time the four giants (? I think? I'm not sure. Again, I've only watched, not played) were called upon to catch the moon from impacting the town, I felt the story took a hard turn into a different direction. Do you think the events that take place inside the moon are believable in the context of all the events that took place prior?

1. On a first playthrough, there's little obvious, immediate indication given as to which non-transformation mask is needed for a given situation, or where to get it, or even if one is necessary. Sometimes when talking to NPCs you'll get a clear tip, but more often than not mask collecting is luck-of-the-draw. But after you get a mask, how it's used is pretty obvious. Where a transformation mask is needed is pretty obvious right away because the task is completely out of Link's skill set (not strong enough, not heavy enough, too heavy, can't swim, can't interact with object).

2. Well, that's the very end of the game. I think games going all-out at the end is a tried and tested thing. I like how the final boss turns the central villain from something fairly innocuous to having god-tier powers in almost an instant.

@dipset said in The EZA Forum Hall of Greats (September 2021):

Question to @Oscillator about Majora's Mask

Firstly, you might be the only person to explain this game in such a way that truly taught me what it's actually about. The main discourse around MM only even mentions it re-using OoT assets but rarely describes the game itself.

In asking this question, just consider that I've never played Majora's Mask: Can you elaborate more on how the gameplay dramatically differs from prior loops once you get new tools and masks? Or if it's easier, explain how the loops in general differ from one another?

In terms of the main path, you typically earn one major item per cycle (like a weapon, song, or transformation mask), which you use to access the next area. Pretty standard Zelda progression. When you start a new cycle, you keep all of these key items, but lose all your rupees (unless you deposit them in the bank - Link's balance gets written on his head :P) and collectables.

Sidequests earn you non-transformation masks, which you also keep between cycles, and then use to complete other sidequests. These sidequests generally take the form of learning the schedules of NPCs (which gets logged in a notebook) in order to be in the right place at the right time to help them out.

You don't always have the necessary information/mask/song/tool/amount of progression to finish a sidequest in the cycle you first encounter it, so the notebook is invaluable to keeping track.

The typical Zelda minigames, heart pieces, and rupee chests are all in place as well. Rupee chests respawn each cycle, but heart pieces and one-of-a-kind items don't, and get rupees put in their places.

@jdincinerator said in The EZA Forum Hall of Greats (September 2021):

@oscillator Do you think Majora's Mask does enough to step out of Ocarina of Time's shadow and establish an identity all its own?

YES.

The vibe of the game is totally different. OOT is a classical adventure with all the standard trappings. Aside from maybe the central field area, Majora is truly weird. Not weird as in "nonsensical", but as in "unsettling". The writing is quite dark. Not blood, guts, and torture dark (it's still quite Zelda), but sadness, regret, longing, hopelessness, and finality abound.

Colour plays a huge role in the game's texture. Purple is sort of the main colour, which in of itself is an "odd" colour. Pastel hazes help convey proverbial illness in the various regions. Link and his weapons visually cut through his surroundings, giving a sense that he is the steadiness in a failing world.

And of course, the timer, notebook, and emphasis on sidequests give the gameplay quite a different flow. The small matters more than the big.

@ffff0 said in The EZA Forum Hall of Greats (September 2021):

Question to @Oscillator about The Legend of Zelda: Majora's Mask.

My biggest concern with games with time loop mechanic is that you have to redo a lot of actions over and over, which can be especially unpleasant if you were on the right track and just ran out of time. And one-hour loop seems like a lot of progress ready to be lost. I imagine that the prospect of such significant progression loss will pressure you to skip dialogs, exploration, and experimentation, which are probably the very things that make this game worth playing.

So, I want to ask you: what positive aspects time loop mechanic bring to this game and what makes drawbacks of having time loop mechanic less dreadful than they seem from the outside?

When I did my first playthrough of MM, I almost never felt any pressure from the timer because at the beginning of each cycle, I would play a song that made the timer run half as fast. However, this is a hidden song, and not everybody will stumble across it. I used a strategy guide (which as I mentioned, I was very glad to have for the water temple, as well as to help find the optional Stray Fairies in all of the dungeons), which of course clearly pointed it out to me.

Without the time-slowing song, I can imagine a fair bit of rushing occurring near the end of cycles. However, once you choose what you're going to do during a given cycle (heavy multitasking is a death sentence, even at half-speed), the path to the goal is usually quite clear and well paced, and should only require average skill to complete on time.

There are a handful of tasks that require efficiency over an entire cycle and/or can be started but not completed depending on what you've unlocked, but unless you have a major lack of patience, you can choose to do simpler things to take your mind off of these more involved tasks until you feel ready to tackle them again.

The "correct" way to play MM is to do exploration/experimentation and progression on separate cycles. As I said, knowing to do this does require more of the player than a typical adventure, but the way events and information get timestamped in your notebook, as well as encountering typical Zelda "I don't have this item yet" barriers, should be sufficient tipoffs to the player as to how to pace themselves.

I don't see how you would be pressured to skip dialogs, as the timer pauses during text, cutscenes, and when viewing menus.

Try to guess how this ends. JUST. TRY.

Youtube Video